North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Perhaps. I think there is a more enduring interest in the Second World War than the 50s and 60s, and that is probably because it is more talked about and more present in popular culture throughout the last decades.

Though the visitor numbers at the MHR were actually good and there was reason to believe they would continue to grow. It takes time.

 

The way that you get around this is making the visitors the re-enactors. The best way to see this comes from motorsport - the Goodwood Revival. At Goodwood, you can have the Festival of Speed which is essentially the main gala weekend of the year, with everything there on show and lots of action. Revival is a massive nostalgia rose tinted glass indulgence with racing and activity all from yesteryear. People attending are usually all in clothing for the period, so it adds to the occasion.

On a railway, the weekend could be a Revival event. Home fleet engines, maybe a single guest. Stock formations typical for the location and time. Diner can still run. The way to get people is to offer a discount on fares, rather than hike them for gala prices for all those in period dress. You'd get more people attending than a standard weekend so overall make more money. It might take a year or so to get going, but the photos on the first year add to the publicity for the next and then the event grows. Easy to get some visiting car club, vans, etc to add to the period of 1950-60's and as people get older this will be the childhood times of those wanting to go, not the war years generation, which due to time alone are with us less now.

Personally, I think that idea is much better than a war weekend and some lines like NYMR, GCR, SVR could really turn the whole line to something for a weekend.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, but there are obvious flaws associated with some of your suggestions - vintage vehicles need space to park and display them, for example, and in most cases that would mean loss of parking spaces for visitors, with the frustrations that brings - not a recipe for happy memories! How many railways could vary their loco and coaching stock formations to represent different eras? Lastly, staging special events incurs costs, from advertising, security, St Johns Ambulance etc., musical performers - how can any railway justify offering reduced fares in the face of those extra costs? There's no point running harder to stand still.

 

Congratulations on pointing out why railways are all skint and when every single idea comes in with a that wont work mentality, its no wonder they are in the state they are in.

The suggestions above were mentioned as possibilities, if parts of it wont work then don't do it. Stock formations are hardly difficult when your on about a wagon or two on the back of a coach set. You might think standard rakes are spot on for what's needed. Your car parking can be solved if you have the space. GCR can use Quorn, for example as the railways at work weekend idea is a short step behind the idea of revival. Other things you mention should be done anyway, publicity should be done by a team already planning events. If Revival is to replace your war weekend then you already have something aside for it. You don't need musical performers if you don't want them... when the cafe can have music on when you step in. In fact why need them at all, they weren't there all the time. The attempt is to turn it into something like a general day way back when, so that atmosphere is whats needed from everyone just mixing, rather than going OTT. I am sure there are some groups that would welcome the chance to come and join in for very little, its just a case of selecting what will work and then use the fares to bring in people. Like I said, you will make more by volume overall, and this event then helps tick a box for thinking of times when costs are an issue.

You can make it work if you want to. Only question is - do you?

 

If you were a reader of the NYMR forum you would know that I have put forward a lot of different ideas for shaking up what the NYMR does, (eg. using the newly acquired pig farm land at New Bridge as an event area and running vintage carriage shuttles to there) but any suggestions have to be practical and workable.

You may not have noticed, but many railways - not all, I admit - are desperately short of space, having been built in a era when parking was not an issue. As for: "You don't need musical performers if you don't want them... when the cafe can have music on when you step in. In fact why need them at all, they weren't there all the time. The attempt is to turn it into something like a general day way back when, so that atmosphere is whats needed from everyone just mixing, rather than going OTT." where is the attraction in what you describe? People nowadays, when looking for an event, expect rather more than different background music - they expect a spectacle that they can see! And for: Stock formations are hardly difficult when your on about a wagon or two on the back of a coach set - what on earth are you on about? In what way would that constitute an attraction?

 

I help organise events at church. The purpose of these, one way and another, is to get additional income that wouldn't otherwise be available. As such, it's important that we don't do them in ways that undermine our normal offerings.

One of your ideas is to discount these events. That would undermine the normal offering, but at the cost of more effort to make those things happen. That seems teh definition of unsustainability as, even if it makes higher gross revenue and even profit on the day, it starts to make ordinary fares look more expensive.

Assuming, for now, that this is entirely volunteer based, you also need to consider risk. Running cafes, bars, etc. costs money. Stock purchased needs to be used as much of it won't keep for long. Buy too little, and you have discontented punters; too much, and you've lost your margin. A friend who's a re-enactor tells me there's a strong "scene" that tends to navigate from event to event, rather than staying loyal to one place, so it would be interesting to get a view of what the real level of demand would be if not kept for headline events.

There are some interesting ideas there for how railways could be done slightly differently, and they might appeal. I'm just not sure whether the balance sits in the right place to actually make a railway more sustainable.

 

You can lead a horse to water........ I think it has become pretty obvious that it's hard to stage a 1940s event without mentioning the war and nowadays that seems to be politically incorrect, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the "German reenactors". 1950s/60s events have never really taken off, and "Thomas" events have largely reached their "best by" date (with one or two honourable exceptions) Gala remain popular but are expensive to stage. The challenge then becomes one of inventing an event that will have a wide appeal, and will at the same time encourage visitors to actually travel on the railway's trains. What I have suggested on the NYMR forum is partnering up with other local organisations to put on their events (Gymkhanas, vehicle rallies, dog shows, craft fairs and so on at locations that are best accessed by rail e.g. the new pig farm field, the paddock at Levisham). That way the costs are low and someone else does most of the organisation, and most such enthusiast groups are only too pleased to have an outlet where they can showcase their particular interests. These comments have been based on ideas for the NYMR, but I really do think that all heritage railways need to find a way to broaden their appeal beyond just being railways, preferably by focusing on what their particular circumstances were - by that I mean, why were they built in the first lace and what local industries did they service?

 

61624 makes several very good points and I am pleased that the GCR is thinking along the same lines. This week has seen "Paw Patrol" trains with a funfair at Rothley. There is a "Vintage" Weekend, a 1940's Weekend 2nd - 4th June and a 50th Anniversary so 60's/70's themed Weekend 17/18 June. A "Railways at Work" weekend with enactors showing freight handling at Quorn is happening in July and August. Visitors are encouraged to dress appropriately if they want. I'm sure the NYMR is trying to do some similar events.

 

Any kind of "background" music (which is often not background at all) puts me off.

 

2023 Dates announced, no real details, War Weekend replaced with a multi decades event.

• 50th Anniversary Steam Gala (21-24 September)
• Heritage Open Days (8-17 September)
• *New Event* - Through the Decades 40s, 50s, 60s, & 70s (14 & 15 October)
• Santa Specials (25 & 26 November and 2 & 3, 9 & 10, 16 & 17 and 23 & 24 December)

 

Kids go free and Adults pay once, £40, for an unlimited pass for the year. Be interesting to see how that goes.

 

I'm a bit intrigued. There's no mention of Gift Aid on the website that I can see but, in order to reclaim that additional £10 from HMG, I would have thought that it would require Gift Aid which some may not be willing or able to do and, to allow Gift aid, I would have thought that there would be acheaper fare available as an option. I know that the delayed publishing of the T/T and fares has been due to ongoing discussion with HMRC so, presumably it has all been cleared.
It would be interesting to see how the figures stack up.

 

Many museums and tourism attractions offer an annual ticket for the same or a bit more than a day ticket. The extra income from food/gifts is well worth it, and being a annual "member" of the attraction can make it more likely that they'll invite their friends, knowing they won't have to pay themselves!

 

I believe, having once had to look into it, that there is an option that allows Gift Aid to be claimed without offering a cheaper option if the attraction allows the visitor to get extended admission. The price differential is where admission is for one time only, and requires the Gift Aid donor to pay more at the gate.

 

Re Gift Aid; I understand that there are two types.
The visitor makes a 10% donation on top of the original fare, or
The visitor is allowed repeated visits to the attraction for 12 months from purchase of the main ticket.

So, with a £40 fare allowing unlimited travel for a year could allow the intending passenger to gift aid at no additional cost, leading to an uptick in gift aid, rather than asking the passenger to make an additional 10% donation.

So the potential net effect could be:
For the passenger: more value for money with the reduced fare (compared to the 2022 season) and ability to return unlimited for a whole year whilst their children travel free.

For the NYMR: maintain and hopefully increase ticket sales during the ‘cost of living crisis’ whilst increasing the net revenue per passenger through gift aid, plus increased shop and food sales.

Thus this could be a win win for both the railway and the visitor, rather than the alternative “increase ticket price / reduce service” formula.

 

Obviously need a trip to Specsavers. Admittedly, I only skim read it the second time to check but why I missed it the first time, I don't know.

 

The question that intrigues me is what this does to yield per seat. Historically (and pre-dating the current GM), the tendency has seemed to be to focus on the price per ticket, with a view to multiplying that up by the number of visits to get overall income. This model appears to turn that on it's head, and focus instead on yield per customer, boosted by Gift Aid*, on the assumption that return visits will be infrequent. It would be interesting to see the modelling, the outturn, and the differences; not that as a non-member I would expect to.

* - Administering Gift Aid, I reckon the value of Gift Aid is 15-20% of total donations received when non taxpayers' contributions are considered. That isn't the same as the number of donors who can Gift Aid their donations, which is a smaller proportion than implied. Those numbers, and I'm sure other tourist attractions will have data informing the likely outturn, will make an important difference to the actual return - especially as the difference in ticket costs will be narrower than in the donations I've dealt with.

 

Certainly no point being a member anymore, as it is dearer to travel!!!