Riley and Son Ltd: Locomotive Engineers

Thought Riley and Son Ltd deserved a thread of their own in view of their achievements in the overhaul of steam locos.
All in a days work, recently out of ‘the works’:

 

45407 seems to get an overhaul every year, but what about the other two?

 

One out of the three (44871 & 45212 being the others) gets a heavy overhaul each year as I understand it.
The other two have would have been called a Works - Intermediate overhaul in the 1960's.
Judging by the trips to Carnforth from Fort William, I guess they get a extra wheel turning in the summer as well.

Cheers, Neil

 

Back in the day, these were referred to at Crewe (I understand) as 'soled and heeled.'

 

The curves and check rails on the Mallaig road certainly knock hell out of an engine.

 

They certainly do...

 

When we did a footplate experience day at ELR, which was supposed to be with 45407, and horror, we ended up with 71000 instead, which must be 15 years ago at least, they mentioned the black 5's frames were in a poor state then, and replacement was mentioned. Dont think that has happened, but may explain the level of care. The statement came from a ELR member of footplate crew.

 

Certainly would imagine 5407 has been one of the most intensively used steam loco's post 1968, can't recall a full year it hasnt been in traffic since the millenium

 

I think I've heard elsewhere that 45428 may need new frames before too long - I've a feeling it was a common issue with this batch of AW-built locos.

 

A few years ago possibly in 2018(?) Tony Streeter asked the question apart from 4965 what other locomotive has featured on the mainline every year since 1998?
I got it straight away 45407, but even though that was 5 years ago it’s still a pretty impressive stat.
Whilst it gets a fair old bit of use, it does seem to be one of those you can set the tea by.

 

The earlier Black 5's had thinner frames than the later ones, being 1" thick. later locos had frames 1/16" thicker and had various other modifications. They suffered from extensive cracking and a spare set of frames was produced in 1943. This set went to 5226, whose frames were subsequently used on 5027. Thereafter there ws a programme of frame swapping and many Black 5's received frames from another loco. 5428 recived the frames from 5265 in August 1945 and , in January 1950, received the frames from 5063.

 

....but.... wasn't 5065 an early example too?

 

Yes. The new set of frames were used on 5226 which released that set of frames for rebuilding and modifications. The rebuilt frames were then used on the next loco whose frames were then rebuilt and modified. I don’t think frame thickness was modified with the rebuilding, just cutting out suspect material and welding in new plus all the required modifications. It didn’t eliminate frame cracking entirely but reduced the occurrence of it, which is why 5428 had two frame swaps.

 

5000 to 5461 had 1" thick frames.
5462 to 5499 and 4800 to 4825 had 1-1/16" thick frames.
4826 to 4999 and 4658 to 4799 had 1-1/8" thick frames.
It was the batch with 1" thick frames that were subject to frame swapping.

 

I've recently read that 44871 was purchased for preservation by Dr. Peter Beet before August 11th 1968, thus she was already privately owned when she worked 1T57.
Does anyone know when he purchased her?.

 

Realistically, all this is little to do with Riley's as such, but since we've started on frame cracking and Black Fives, let us continue. They weren't the only LMS class to suffer, nor was the LMS the only railway. Ex-LNWR engines were generally bad, although the removal of the centre bearing without any counter measure probably accounts for this. But another class to suffer was the Royal Scots, many receiving new frame plates on rebuilding with 2A boilers and I've read that some had complete new frame assemblies. But to return to Stanier and the Black Fives.

The idea behind these engines was the ability to go anywhere, and weight and axle loading were major issues in the design which took time to resolve; it is said the the final details were worked out by Vulcan Foundry before 5020 appeared. The Traffic people were already clamouring for fifty more Class 5s (Horwich Crabs) and the Fives wouldn't be ready in time; they got ten Crabs and then forty of Stanier's taper boiler variant as an interim measure. The methods used to save weights were partly new but partly established - or to become established - practice (i) frame thickness was reduced from 1 1/16" to 1"; (ii) the number of stretchers was reduced - this was because it was believed that too many provided excessive stiffness and flexibility became the order of the day, and (iii) hornblocks were replaced by separate axlebox guides which provided no support to the top corners of the horn gaps. It is notable that most, although not all, Black Five frame cracks originated in these locations, quite logically most at the tops of the driving horn gaps.

Repair was not a simple weld job, although this was usually tried as an interim measure, but unsuccessfully. The (slightly more) permanent cure was to cut out a section of the frame and weld in a new piece, which generally lasted five years or more before the trouble recurred.

 

He’d certainly done the deal by then but what the sale date was on the contract I do not know. I also recall reading an interview where he said 44871 was the last 1T57 loco to drop its fire as it was kept in steam for some filming at Carnforth MPD on the day after.

 

I think he also said something about what started with Rocket would end with us to friend on August 12th.
Sort of getting back on track I found some footage of 5407 and 4871 at Carnforth in the 1970’s or 80’s (under then different owners) on YouTube, very interesting how both locos and 10A’s history from 1968 seem to be intertwined with each other.