Should lines withhold loco roster information at galas?

Out of interest, I have my NYMR gala programme on order

http://nymr.co.uk/store/online-shop

Cheers

 

I totally agree if you just want to turn up and take photos and not travel then you should expect to pay for the locomotive roster and timetable, loco roster information should always be available, if you are travelling and buy a rover ticket, a free sheet should be available, all that is needed is plain information what what loco is on which train and way it is facing, don't need booklet with glossy photos and technical info about the engines, put that in a souvenier programme that you can buy if you wish. the SDR done a wonderful job for their 40th.anniversary gala they had their working timetables for the whole week on their website just had to dowmload and print off, brilliant!!

 

Publishing a loco roster is an excellant idea and should be sold separately to the day ticket.

For those just turning up for a ride and to see what goes on, they wont buy it, but those who do will.
I always buy the roster.. I can plan me day for what I want to ride on, what I want to photograph and where.

£5 is fine, £6 is pushing it.. £3 for Betton.. well I gave Ben a bit of extra change on top of this when I did my entry.

 

In reference to this I find it quite interesting to note that the South Devon Railways has set up such an area just outside Buckfastleigh for their 40th Gala where you can take photos of trains coming and going, I do believe the intention is to leave it there for future Galas.
You can actually get some quite good pics from this spot.

As for Timetables they are very good the SDR ones are usually pub;lished before hand on their website and do allow you to roughly plan what you are going to photograph, where and when and also which trains you are going to catch and travel on as opposed to others. They are also quite easy to follow, even the quite complicated movements at the 40th Gala once certain moves made sense.

 

A Gala is an event, like a Film or a Play, you don't pay to be told what film is showing you pay to watch it. The statement that I read that diesel enthusiasts have bullied railways into issuing rosters is just downright daft, it's not bullying to say I will come and spend money on your railway but I need to know that what you are providing is what I want to spend my money on. People travel long distances to get to railways and use up time which they could be allocating elsewhere, railways need to give as much information as possible to attract their visitors.

There is another point here though, if I visit a Gala then it is to travel and therefore I will be spending money with the railway concerned, photographers are another matter. You may have to rely on the goodwill of the photographer to make a donation to the railway for the information provided and the 'free' entertainment that is enjoyed.

For my part if the railway won't issue the information on what is running then I can't risk my time and money attending. There are usually competing events and our own loco's to be looked after so a choice has to be made. A Gala is a product and should be fully advertised as such.

 

I am unsure why some people, perhaps you cold shed light pegasus though others have mentioned it, feel it is a "risk" to attend a gala without knowing what loco is pulling what train. I personally attend gala's - steam (sometimes diesel) because I enjoy them and I enjoy and wish to support the railway...

 

It's because some people have a preference for the type of locomotives that they enjoy. I will travel to enjoy a day with GWR locomotives, I'm not particularly bothered about the rest. The preference is even more marked where diesels are concerned, I'd travel two or three hours and pay good money to travel behind a Hydraulic but I wouldn't travel to the bottom of the road, even if someone was paying me, to travel behind a Class 47.

 

I believe timetables and loco diagrams published before the event create goodwill and are therefore worthwhile. I am sometimes sceptical of the pre-event 'glossies' knowing that changes to diagrams are likely nearer the event. for that reason a roster published on the internet - and updated as the event approaches - is the best bet for me.

The reason for the roster depends on your interest, i prefer to ride behind locomotives of all means of propulsion and I live in Bradford. If I am travelling to, say, the Mid hants diesel gala and can only afford one night away from home then I want to be able to know which locos are running when so that I can plan which night to stay and which night to drive home. If my required engine is only doing one round trip at 10:00 on the Saturday morning then I need to be in the area on the Friday night - this is another gripe, all advertised locos should, in my opinion, work on all the days of the gala. If I have travelled a large distance for 4 engines to find that two of them are not working on the day I can do then I am not happy!

I am happy to pay for information if required - website rosters via paypal perhaps? But I appreciate I am in a minority here. I think the diesel enthusiasts 'bullying' argument is not really the case. Diesel enthusiasts simply tend to be more polarised in their interests and may not attend a particular part of an event if their particular favourite class or type is not working at that point. It is really therefore in the organisers interest to mix the traction round a bit to allow the English Electric fraternity an afternoon in the pub while the Sulzer stuff is out - or vice versa! Steam enthusiasts in my opinion are generally happy to ride behind a steam loco of whatever origin or colour - it is the photographers (who may or may not contribute to the event) who want to know what is working when.

 

Can we please put to bed once and for all the perception that steam enthusiasts don't care what they are hauled by as long as it's steam? A couple of years ago the WSR had 34007 Wadebridge as guest at a spring gala, possibly its first gala appearance anywhere. On the second Saturday of the gala, it wasn't in traffic at all. Not failed, just not rostered. There were a huge number of complaints from people who had travelled to the WSR that day specifically for Wadebridge, and who were mightily p1ss3d off to find it sitting in Minehead yard all day.

If I go to a steam gala, I go to travel, not to spend most of the day at trackside with a camera and a Hi-Viz jacket on. If I'm travelling any distance for that gala, I want to know what's running. If there are guests booked, especially locos that I've never seen working before, I want to know that a) they will be running and b) they will be hauling passenger stock at least some of the time, so I can get a ride. If I were going to a diesel gala, I'd have no trouble finding this out. Simply go to the railway web site or preserved diesels site and the info will be there. But I'm going to a steam gala so I have to pay for the same information (in addition to any travel tickets I buy), because "steam enthusiasts don't mind paying". Tell me, is this fair?

 

No, I don't think that you are in the minority here.
I rather think that the majority, whether travellers or linesiders, are happy to pay for information (providing it's not a silly amount) and from reading this thread and others, I'm beginning to think there's a consensus appearing.

1. We want timetable and roster information in advance, as far in advance as possible (but see 2.)
2. We want it to be as accurate as possible. Ok, that's not an easy one to fit in with 1.)
3. We want to be able to get it as conveniently as possible.
4. There seems to be a feeling that, the loco roster at least, should be provided free of charge (included in the price if you like) with day rover tickets.

I appreciate the first two points are a little incompatible but the problem isn't insurmountable and the solution, to me at any rate, seems obvious.
The K&WVR and others have done an excellent job in the past providing this information via the internet and most railways seem sufficiently web savvy nowadays to be able to provide information this way.
So, online payment for a timetable and planned roster well in advance (remember people often need to book travel accommodation early), deliver the information by email or web download (that could be automated) then provide updates via the same method if things change before the day.
As to point 4., that's up to individual railways but I tend to agree. Rover tickets can be quite pricey enough without having to fork out even more to find out what you can do with it.
Like others here, I've turned up at galas for a particular loco only to find that it had been working the previous day and would be the next but not while I was there. That sort of thing doesn't engender good feeling or make it likely that I will travel to that line if I think it's not worth the risk of being disappointed again.

 

Playing devil's advocate here, but speaking personally if I'm travelling then I want to see rosters to plan a day. If I'm taking photos then it makes far less of a difference what comes anyway, you can still enjoy photography! Indeed, many of the most photogenic locos (let's just take A4s as an example) make **** all noise and I'd get nothing out of travelling behind one! But back to my point, if you're taking photos, on a lot of lines you can travel between locations in between trains, and end up seeing just about everything that passes anyway, if you're travelling you can't! So is it possible that, far from encouraging freeloaders to spend some cash, these gala programmes are simply charging those who paid in the first place? And having forked out for a gala programme, these people may be less likely to finish their visit with a trip to the gift shop...

Not to mention that most of the information in "gala programmes", such as histories of each loco, guides to the line etc, are redundant to a large portion of the visiting enthusiasts...

So in essence, my view. Charging for loco rosters? Yes, IF if what's being given out are basic loco diagrams on the timetable, and available in advance, and a sensible price, maybe £1 for an online copy (sent by email or a password-protected site) or £1.50 for a hard copy posted?

 

Like you, I was also surprised to find "Wadebridge" not working on that day. Not sure about the printed material, but certainly the online information for that event stated that "not all engines will be working each day" and in any case, a quick phone call to the Railway would have confirmed if certain locos were running on a particular day. So I'm afraid all those complaints were somewhat misguided.

I believe every attempt is now made by WSR to ensure all locos get at least one run on each Gala day but there will always be exceptions. Best advice is to check the online information and arm yourself with a WTT.

Steve
(WSW)

 

In the main the people who got caught out were those down for a day, and, if I remember correctly, this unfortunately included those who had come in on a mainline charter train, who therefore didn't have a lot of choice which day they came. Most people had to that point assumed that, with the normal ratio of visitors to home fleet locos taking part in the gala, "not all engines will be working each day" was more likely to apply to the home fleet than the visitors. Certainly not to one of the star visitors on what was the busiest day of the gala.

We all appreciate that things can go wrong, restorations and routine maintenance can overrun, engines can break and low loaders can have punctures and catch fire, so we accept that an advertised loco may not be available for any number of reasons. And to be fair, lessons were learnt from that incident, both that the locos due to work each day need to be advertised in advance, and that not rostering one of the star guests on a gala Saturday was a decision that shouldn't be repeated.

 

I too have assumed that the WSR will run its guest engines whenever they are available and use its residents as 'mainline pilots' ie as standby locos. This would seem to me to be the logical, indeed rational, thing to do. There seems little point in splashing out to get a glittering cast together and then spending more money in advertising the fact and then not using them! Why disappoint the customer?

But then there are always matters which require improvement, this is simply one of them. The WSR does very well generally but there is room for improvement.

Sorry but it is true.

 

I thought the guide was well produced and good value for money. Indeed I bought two, and dismembered one so that I could carry just the roster for the day on each day that I travelled.

David

 

I'm sure there was a reason for the non-appearance of Wadebridge (other than bloodymindedness!) on that Saturday, but I can't recall now what it was. Sometimes we, the public, do not have all the facts, just the disappointment. I agree the visiting machines should each work trains on each Gala day, if the timetable (and loco condition) allows. The WSR Galas nowadays require all steamers to be available, with one as standby (thunderbird), so the home fleet will be used as much as the visitors.

Steve
(WSW)

 

Similarly, was there a reason for the parking up of 5051 on gala a couple of years back? I did buy the WTT, and was visiting for 3 days, so did manage to had some great trips behind it, but it did seem strange for a visiting engine that was in the last year of its ticket and is unlikely to run again in the near future :-(

Back on topic, personally I think charging £3 to £5 for a meaningfull, well produced WTT/guidebook is perfectly reasonable. It helps support events that are not cheap to stage, and charging anything less will hardly cover the costs/time involved in producing it.

 

The SSSII guide was superb value for only £3, far better than the two sheets of A3 that the Bluebell charge £2.50 for.

 

Like many I am happy to pay for a WTT but I have been disdappointed more than once when info is not published in advance. EG: Once I travelled to the Severn Valley to travel behind a particular engine and to get the track in behind my favourite diesel class. I got there for the second train (the earliest I could get there) and found the engine I wanted had done the first train and did no more for the rest of the day. I went straight back to Kidderminster BR for a train to the Great Western at Wolves... I have not been back to a Severn Valley gala since and still need the track behind my favs!

 

What's happened with regard to the NYMR gala seems a good argument for making the loco roster info available on the web. I ordered a copy of the timetable last week so that I could plan the days I would attend based on which locos were working. As yet I've received neither a printed copy nor the PDF file that other people have mentioned they were e-mailing out, and as I understand it, when I do get it, the loco information will be wrong. Had the loco rosters been shown on their website, they could have updated it as it changed and I could stil have bought the glossy brochure when I got there as a souvenir.