LSWR T3 563

While I cant see Lion on the next departure from Bishops Lydeyard what it can do very well it give todays drivers, firemen & engineers an insight which hopefully someone can record into operating machines of this era.

It can also give those who see it or travel behind it an experience of what travel was like in the early years of the railways.

This is precisely the sort of reason why some of these real relics should still be run from time to time

 

https://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/sweden10.htm

Sweden run some of their vintage stuff occasionally, including on the mainline! Not very often though, usually once a decade if you're lucky.



I've had a few rides behind this in Switzerland too, again on the mainline - an 1856 built 0-4-6T with no train brakes, merely handbrakes on loco and replica coaches.

 

Better IMHO to build replicas - indeed, there is a surprisingly large number of pre-1830 replicas which tend to get completely ignored when people discuss new builds.

Tom

 

Once you agree there are exceptions, the only question is where you draw the line between “possibly” and “never”.

Personally I can’t see the point of steaming “Lode Star” of “City of Birmingham” when there are basically equivalent locos knocking around in traffic.

Given that they ran in the 1970s / 80s, I regret I wasn’t actively chasing steam to see “Hardwicke”, the Stirling single and - very interesting - the Midland Compound. Worth getting out of bed for any of those whereas City of Birmingham is a bit meh.

Of things that haven’t run in years and almost certainly never will, I’d love to see the NER 2-4-0; the long boiler NER 0-6-0 and - left field - “Derwent”.

Being realistic though, I think there is space both for locos that are interpreted by operation, and those that are best preserved as static artefacts with substantial originality. There isn’t only one right answer, and I certainly don’t think that it is the role of the NRM to just be a warehouse of sweeties that we can grab from at will and then discard when we’ve all ticked each one off and got bored.

Tom

 

Now a days, those engines would never even be considered for returning to steam, if 563 had not been given to SRT, its not certain, that the NRM, would have allowed the overhaul at all, or even cosmetic work, but to me working, in ex works condition, says far more than static in its much faded old livery, would, after so many years, paint finishes will dull, and pigments will loose colour, wiping down with an paraffin rag, will discolour the paint also, Many of the old pre grouping liveries are not that well seen, and I like the complex liveries compared to plain black, or green, I am hoping that once 53 returns to steam, that also is restored to LSWR livery, rather than its BR livery, even if only for the first years of its next ticket.

 

Some good points but I would much rather seeing them in steam than static and lifeless

 

or Southern green. Maybe 563 after its first overhaul in a few years time!?? Some pre group liveries are smart but some are a bit gaudy for my taste

P.S. @Jamessquared Tom, how can an LMS Duchess ever be meh!!

 

I'm firmly in the Coiley/Bellwood camp that, if it could be steamed, then it was a candidate for doing so. Those early years of the NRM when they were in charge were wonderful times. With regard to Tom's question about whether the original Rocket should be steamed then I doubt that modern safety requirements would allow it but the Lion is a different matter. My only caveat is that original practice should be employed where anything is replaced so , for example, no welded components in lieu of castings. That also helps keep the necessary skills alive.

One loco mentioned up thread that I think should be back in steam is the Midland Compound. Although there are a couple of compounds around we are very much in danger of losing the skillset to operate one.

 

Go to the Pockerley Waggonway at Beamish to see beautifully recreated replicas of early locomotives in action

Mark

 

I think there is a choice of five different green livery options for No 563 - Adams pea-green, Drummond "royal-green", Urie sage-green, Maunsell olive-green and Bulleid malachite-green. Don't know if it ever acquired SR wartime-black, but I'm sure someone will want that sometime in the future!

The restorers appear to have selected the Drummond livery, which has the advantage of being distinctively different from the other green variants seen in operation on heritage railways.

 

The initial pea green I wasn't keen on, but the Drummond livery which has just been applied is smart. I also think it would look good in Southern olive green. The later malachite green I wasn't keen on either.

 

Back then, the NRM was a working museum, with the right people in charge, but now, its , well i don't know what it is. more of a child's playground, the only working locos will be the ones on loan to preserved railways. even scotsman will end up as an non working exhibit, once its current ticket is up, the science museum have a very different ethos to the NRM, just look at the reserve collection at Wroughten, much of it is in a very poor state of preservation.

 

I like the Compound too. Remember going to Manchester Victoria one Saturday night in 1980 to see it on a special in connection with Rainhill. It was a hot dry spell so it had a class 25 with it providing some of the power

 

I think that this is the special in question leaving Bolton en-route to Manchester in the late afternoon of Sat.17th May 1980. Only Maude, 7298 and Lion managed to avoid being piloted by a diesel.
Ray.

 

Yes it is! Memory playing tricks, I forgot it was a 47. Thanks for the photo

 

Are you sure about that...!

 

Well said Tim. This is the point I keep trying to make: some locos are better in steam, some should be conserved in order to preserve their material authenticity. Each case must be judged on its own merits.

I'll admit that, for me, 563 was a borderline case as to whether it should be restored or conserved. Mechanically, it was basically untouched since leaving SR service. There's fewer and fewer locos one can now say that of. I know many people would say, "so what? Parts are always replaced during a locos working life." True, but in preservation, we can't necessarily recreate the manufacturing processes which were used in the steam age. If you want an example of what I mean, look at Bob Meanly's recent article in Trackside about superheater headers. Once they would have been made using wooden patterns; more recently, castings have been made using polystyrene patterns, and increasingly it looks like 3d printed moulds will be the future. Those different techniques subtly change the properties of the finished product. If we restored everything, we would have no truly authentic material record of what steam age craftsmanship was actually like.

Please remember that museums have different objectives to heritage railways. They are as much about providing a resource for historians and researchers as about providing a visitor attraction (though of course, the latter is also important - and if they've invested heavily in cafés and soft play areas, that's because they need them in order to be successful visitor attractions). The NRM preserves rail vehicles partly as an archive of steam age construction methods and materials. For industrial archaeologists, these material records are just as important as the paper-based archives.

As I say, the T3 was a borderline case, but of course there are limits to how many vehicles the NRM can care for, and it must be said that the engine's cosmetic condition has already deteriorated ton the point where, at the least, remedial conservation work would have been necessary to make her presentable. I'm also really glad that (IIRC) the loco's life expired firebox, with wartime patches, has been kept as an exhibit rather than scrapped. If you're going to restore a loco like 563, then that's the right way to do it.

563's restoration is a wonderful achievement - I'm as delighted as anyone else to see her back in steam, and I take my hat off to the team at Swanage who have made it happen. But please don't use this case to try to prove that "restoration is always better than conservation". As I say, evey case is different. While this particular engine might be better off outside the Museum, there are many others which would be far better off staying within it.

To quote one former NRM staff member - speaking many years ago, after a working NRM loco had suffered damage at the hands of a heritage railway - "we are the keepers of the National Collection, not the providers of free toys for people to play with and then throw away". Sadly, the "free toys" attitude seems to be all too prevalent among the enthusiast community.

Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk

 

Yes, but perhaps he should have said "Only Maude, 7298 and Lion managed to avoid being piloted by a diesel en route to Bold" as that was what he was meaning. Maude's journey in particular was quite headline grabbing given the circumstances at the time. Your picture shows 35028 taking part in the cavalcade itself when I don't think any loco had a diesel pilot.

 

Can all be confirmed on this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p011vfz4

As a modern traction enthusiast I find it rather interesting D1062 was allowed to run under its own power at that event.

As ever though this thread is turning into ‘What’s my favourite loco that’s out of action, and when can we play with it please?’