LSWR T3 563

Two statements that the NRM SHOULD be paying attention to.

If their attitude to being 'keepers' of the National Collection was more proactive, then the supposedly preserved Class 502 would not have gotten into the state it was in before being 'deaccessioned', the Broad gauge exhibits would still be there, and the suburban 'CL' now at Oswestry would still be 'an example of everyday rolling stock' in the collection. Endless rows of non accessible 'Royal' saloons and childrens play areas does not portray a working railway.

 

Also, in the real world, does anyone really care about how superheater headers are made providing they work?

 

Yes - if you're a national museum.

And no if you are a private owner who wants to run their own loco but minimise the costs.

 

The thing is, railway preservation is a branch of the entertainment industry and the bulk of the visitors are Joe public, with the enthusiasts a minority. To the public, a working loco is a draw and an impressive sight, a dead one much less so.

 

Had Steamport Southport not been shut down - although I completely understand why they moved to Preston - then the 502 would still have had the chance to occasionally "stretch its legs" for one or two specials on the (Merseyrail) Northern Line system. Nothing worse for a multiple unit, and an electric one in particular, to sit idle and powered down on a siding.

Mark

 

I don’t think that’s the reason people volunteer so much of their time & money.

 

It isnt, but, in essence, that is what heritage railways and museums are

 

Did you even read my last post? I repeat: the NRM is a MUSEUM, NOT a heritage railway. It serves a fundamentally different purpose. Its primary roles are to educate the public, and provide resources for researchers and historians. Keeping engines in steam is not their core purpose. Heritage railways are far better placed to recreate the experience of a working railway.

It's true, the museum does also have to entertain people, but museums have other means by which they can bring exhibits to life and use them to tell powerful stories, without necessarily having to actually operate them. Remember, the NRM tells the story of railways as much - if not more - through small exhibits as though large ones. In terms of numbers of exhibits, full-size rail vehicles actually make up a relatively small proportion of the collection.

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I disagree. Heritage railways and museums of course need to be commercial enough to survive & prosper, but that is not why they exist.

 

I agree, it's unfortunate about the 502 etc. but, like every organisation, the NRM has finite resources and sometimes has to make difficult choices about what it can and can't conserve. That's precisely why 563 (and, ultimately, the 502) was deaccessioned.

It is very easy to snipe from the sidelines but, having worked in museums myself, I know from bitter experience how difficult it can be in practice to keep on top of conservation.

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Heritage railways are more like living museums.

Without the museum element. There is no product to sell/ commercial element. Without the commercial element there is no support for the museum element.

 

In shock news it is reported that there is more to railways than just locomotives. Who knew?!
Pat

 

Had my first ever trip today to the Foxfield for the Knotty 100 event, so saw the Engine. I would love to see it steam too and I did get chatting to a guy who was very involved with the Foxfield and Knotty coach trust about it.

It was on loan to the Churnet valley Rly, but they were keeping it stored outside and the NRM was apparently very concerned about deterioration from outside storage, so looked for a solution, so after being impressed with the NLR coaches being restored decided to offer to donate it to the Foxfield on the condition that it be kept undercover which I was told then said yes please ! No doubt the industrial coal mining past of the loco and the Foxfield being an ex colliery railway part of the NLR also helped so it was deaccessioned as a way of getting it undercover, It was inside the building when I saw it today, so to be fair to the NRM they took the decision in the best interests of the loco.

I did ask was there a plan to restore it to run with the North Stafford coaches but the answer is no. The problem is that its an 0-6-2 but the two rear wheels are fixed to the frame, ie its not a bogie/pony truck. The rear wheels can move up and down but not side to side so this gives is a very long wheelbase and ,therefore, it couldn't run at foxfield as the curves on the line would be too tight. The Foxfield, therefore, wouldn't spend (he quoted £500k) restoring a loco to steam that even once finished they wouldn't be able to run at the Foxfield. Its also from a much later period than the coaches so he said looked huge coupled to the coaches, so I expect it will stay at it is.

As for the paintwork I understand it was painted at Crewe works in 1960 so is considered very original, so it may also explain why the NRM wanted to remove it from the collection as they wouldn't want to destroy the originality, but it would still look a bit shabby for display at York.

 

Can you produce numbers to justify that? In particular footfall at heritage railways compared to NRM.

 

One might think so. But finding a clear statement of the Science Museum Group's aims and objectives is not easy.

The latest version of the SMG Plan which I can find is for 2021/22 - 2024/25. Reading this the main aim, clearly stated as the first Key Performance Indicator, is to grow visitor numbers.

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/smg-plan-21-25-v3.pdf

Regarding the operation of locomotives and rolling stock, there is a clearer plan available which makes the NRM's very limited ambitions obvious.

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org....19/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

The latest statement of strategic priorities is titled Inspiring Futures. I have to say that as a geriatric railway enthusiast and long retired educationalist, it does not inspire me! I think the recent moves towards entertainment rather than education as a way to make the museums self-financing are built in.

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Inspiring-Futures_2022-2030.pdf

 

I do think it's a fair comment that operating locomotives add a different dimension to a cold lifeless museum exhibit.

I'm 99% sure that somewhere in the museums aims will be interpretation of the exhibits- its tricky to give a proper interpretation of a transportation device that doesn't move.

563 ought to be viewed as a massive success story, its taken an asset that was under appreciated where it was and given it a new life where hopefully its exposure and appreciation will be vastly better than if it were tucked away somewhere.

The fact that it's new life will be working is also amazing, there are very few locomotives if its period and of similar design/purpose operational and it can tell a story few other locos can.

I have expressed before my worry about the NRM- I know a day out needs to be more than just looking at stuff if you want to involve families, but the key here is to engage them, not to have the museum as an add on to a play area.

Yesterday my family and I visited our local model engineers, and the most engaged my 4 year old daughter was the whole day.........

Helping one of the folk dispose of his 7 1/4 loco and helping "put it to bed" along with helping shunt the carriages and operate the points (under supervision).

Thats how to engage children......

Chris

 

I think the majority of British 0-6-2 tanks had radial trucks at the back end, which allowed for some sideways movement, albeit less than might have been the case with a pony truck. If I remember rightly from looking under 6697 at Didcot, its main frames are inset about an inch at the rear end to allow for sideways wheel movement. The GW Large Prairies have a similar rear-end arrangement, whereas the 45XX Small Prairies have pony trucks at both ends.

 

I do but I am not sure the NRM / Science Museum does, who when I enquired about the Melesco header/ multiple valve regulator from 71000 https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...melesco-superheater-header-superheater-header told me it was in "deep storage" i.e. don't bother to ask.

 

I note in the Introduction of that document "a core selection of operating vehicles at York and Locomotion within the maintenance capabilities of teams at those locations" (my emphasis). Presumably the decision to close down the York workshop was taken after those words were written.

 

No, page 2 makes it clear major overhauls will always be contracted out and only basic maintenance done in-house.

This policy decision was made following the 2005-2012 fiasco of the Flying Scotsman overhaul. Closure of the York workshop was probably inevitable after that.