Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

While I can simpathise with the it must go back as it was attitude, I also find myself at odds with it.

My reason for this is very simple, we cannot recreate what was there then, now, technology has moved on and so has enviormental issues rightly or wrongly. Both have changed which has brough a change to the new locos thatw e hope are improvements on the old design if that is possible.

As a railway enthuiast yes it would be great to be able to do this as it was, but even the heritage carriage don't comply since they are build on a modern FR coach chassis design.

I could go on with a list of the tweats that we have used to get this far, but there is very little point in doing so.

The new L&BR is very much the railway we have all hoped for, but it needs to comply with current rules and regulations which we simply can not ignore.

For what it is worth then yes I would like to see a totally rebuild Blackmoor to the same standards as we have at Woody Bay.

However, unless someone is willing to put the money up front for that to happen, then what has been proposed is about as good as you will get for now.

I am glad that I am not the only one that would like to see this happen, but to carry it out now in light of what we know currently, would be commercial suicide.

I personally think that if we want to see the Blackmoor of old, then we need to see if we can purchase yet more of the land around the pub before any construction takes place.

 

We can not overlook either the fact that Blackmoor will never again look 'like it used to' for the simple reason that (hopefully - funds and ENPA permitting) there will be a large pseudo-Pilton loco and C&W depot just the other side of the bridge Equally, if/when we 'return to Barnstaple' the new Pilton station presumably will be nothing like the original railway presence on that site, assuming that no-one would be suggesting by that time to relocate the BR Depot to Pilton.

 

You are right that nothing can be exactly as was. A lot of legislation has changed for example. This makes it even more imperative that each step away is carefully considered first. Such considerations would also need to accommodate timing.

I wouldn’t myself have wanted to start where we are with OSHI, but given that we are where we are we have to make the best of it. If careful consideration were to come up with a plan to return the station to its original form, even if this were to involve moving the said building to a new location on the site to accommodate the changes in level talked about earlier (much bigger buildings have been moved and the cost may be worth the end, or not), then it would clearly NOT be the moment now to do that or indeed any alteration. That doesn’t though mean that the plan oughtnt to be to radically change the OSHI when the railway is ready to be built through there.

It is essential I think that things stop being done because they are “something “ and we get to a place where once again the only things that are done are the things which should be done.

On the subject of carriages (which is an aside), the use of better “off the shelf” chassis design is clearly a desirable deviation. It makes no difference to the “look”, makes compliance easier and a proven design is much preferable. The original builders might well have chosen this design if it had been available to them.

 

Another example of a plan that may or may not be sound. One of the issues I now have is that with all the obviously wrong stuff it has become hard to know what does make sense.

When the railway is complete throughout, Blackmoor will be an operationally difficult place to have the works. (I expect a number of objections to this so I will justify myself). The best place for the works is at the end from which most of the traffic originates. This means that spare vehicles, spares and most importantly people are readily to hand when things go wrong. The Land B will be long enough that it will need (I suspect) a small base at the other end as well. This is true of all the longest railways in the UK (and abroad for that matter).

My hypothesis is that most traffic will originate at Barnstable. Whilst Pilton may no longer be the place, the closer to the terminal the better. The alternative if the works is built at Blackmoor will be a situation where there will be one main works and TWO out stations which will be expensive of staff and may make having critical mass to run a works efficiently quite tricky.

Now, with a joined up plan we might conclude that it makes sense for a number of years to have the works at Blackmoor. That’s quite plausible. We need a plan though that has sufficient vision!

 

Its quite possible Blackmoor is the best overall. When you think of the size of workshops etc and the footprint, it's going to be far cheaper and probably easier than acquiring the necessary land in Barnstaple itself due to higher land costs, altered infrastructure, etc.
Any land within the Barnstaple boundary is going to be at a premium, whereas the land at Blackmoor workshops is farm land.

Operationally, if there is a breakdown, is it better to be in the middle of the line? Say an engine breaks down at Dean Steep, it's a long wait for a relief to come up from Pilton. Admittedly if it was at Snapper it would be a short wait. But being in the middle, or the ends, probably makes no odds really in the long run?

 

But what are the "changes in level"? The platforms haven't changed, the trackbed North and South hasn't changed, the main road might have changed but as the railway has to go under it anyway, I don't see that's a factor.
So what are the changes in level we read about?
Ian

 

As far as I recall, the road is now lower than it was, it's been smoothed out over the years for line of sight east to west on the A399.
As I see it the move of the line slightly further west overcomes that without altering the line of the road.
It's a bitch of a junction at the best of times and probably the best it can be at the moment with the A39 now coming up from Barnstaple to a 90° junction instead of askew as it was when the railway first ran.

 

I think @21B is right about siting things. Assuming the line is one day long enough that it is S"somewhere to somewhere" (rather than just the current short shuttle), then you ideally need your major loco and carriage storage and servicing at the end most traffic originates. Anything else - i.e. a major base in the middle - will just result in having to run considerable (real or de facto) ECS trips at the beginning and end of each day. That not only bakes in a degree of additional running mileage that has to be paid for, but also potentially increases the number of crew needed if days get stretched out over 12 hours or so.

(And note I said running mileage, not just coal costs. If, for example, you turn a 50 mile productive day into one that is 60 miles with additional ECS trips, then you need to cover 6 loco overhauls for every 5 you would otherwise need to make, because for teh same number of steam days, overhaul costs are largely mileage-dominated).

As @21B says - what is missing is the big vision. You then think about everything you are doing as to whether they are an ultimate part of that big vision. If not, then there may still be a tactically expedient reason for doing something, but at least it is recognised that it isn't part of the main strategy, and can be provisioned accordingly.

Tom

 

I'm sorry, but I don't get why the major works and sheds need to be closest to the busiest terminal.
If we look at the mainline GWR there is a major works is in Plymouth, DMU works is in Westbury. Greater Anglia is in Ilford, not LLP, and the carriage cleaning depot is in Colchester with other works at Ipswich and Norwich.
Another is the works at Ashford.
Land cost and usage near the main terminals is a big factor being as its in an urban area.
As long as you can shed the first train of the day out of Barnstaple in a small shed, and perhaps have a diesel on standby, it makes no odds where the main works and sheds are.
One point that does make Blackmoor more beneficial though is the park and ride, which is to relieve traffic, or increase footfall without an increase in traffic, in Lynton and Lynmouth. Therefore it's possible the first train will actually go from Blackmoor to Lynton as a P&R, and one leaving Pilton with the few early risers in Barnstaple. By mid morning and the majority of lazy grockles have got out of bed, and perhaps a few day trippers have come in from Exeter way, by then the P&R will be into Barnstaple from Lynton, or perhaps the first from Blackmoor as a P&P in the opposite direction into Barnstaple (not forgetting there will be Whistlandpound to visit too for picnics etc).
I wouldn't mind betting some will park at Blackmoor and ride into Barnstaple on that first train too for a different experience.
The experiences to be had by visitors will be varied, just as they are on the Ffestiniog/WHR lines and using Porthmadog as a base to fan out to Bleanau, Carnarvon, or any of the stations on the way for walks etc.
We cannot assume that all the traffic will be from Barnstaple as it was originally due to that P&R at Blackmoor.

 

Perhaps we all may be missing a trick here- just because Barnstaple was the original connection point, it doesn't mean to say that the future L&B will require a similar traffic pattern.
Blackmoor, rightly or wrongly will be the future hub of the railway's raison d'etre, which is that it is the gateway to Exmoor, the planned park and ride facilities being a case in point.
Demand will be for trains to start from Blackmoor, either for a journey south down the Yeo Valley, or north across the Moor to Lynton. After all, nobody stays in Barnstaple unless they really have to! I can easily see this as a line which requires 2 days to explore all the glories on offer, and to that end it is perhaps inevitable that Blackmoor must be the "sacrificial lamb", in providing all the facilities the 21st century tourist requires, ie restaurant and refreshments, visitor centre, modern toilets, etc.
Better to have it all in one place, and take the pressure off the other stations, allowing them to represent what they always were, a haven of tranquility devoid of the smell of food and the sound of flushing toilets and hand dryers.
So I can easily forsee the service pattern being one which begins and ends at Blackmoor, rather than the extremities, rather similar to Winchcombe and Toddington on the GWSR.

 

I think the other thing is the workshops are not really going to impact neighbours much, whereas any major works in Barnstaple is going to be near houses etc. Logistics wise turning off at South Molton and going along the A399 straight to Blackmoor with loco moves, carriages etc is probably going to be easier too than trying to thread their way into Barnstaple and getting to Pilton Yard.
As you say, the idyllic run through Yeo Valley and into Barnstaple with a nice sympathetic Station at the end with no big workshop affair would perhaps be more appealing to visitors too.

 

I totally see that having your main sheds and works at the terminus is the ideal, but given that even extending a mile right now is looking awfully hard, dreaming of a depot at Barnstaple seems a bit unrealistic. If it ever happens it will be decades away, and if the LBR is going to be viable it will need the depot sooner rather than later. BG might not be the total ideal solution but pragmatically it’s surely the only option for a very long time?


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Not 'getting' why the main shed and works needs to be close to the main starting point shows a lack of knowledge of the advantages of so doing. The L & B will never be similar to the big railway with many starting points so it cannot be compared in any way. The L&B will also be a 9-5 operation, not 24hrs/day. Tom has explained the disadvantages of having your main base remote and they are real. You have already admitted that you will need suitable infrastructure at Barnstaple to house locos and stock so you've significantly added to the cost of resources. You've also to consider the time and effort of loco and coach swaps. When you want to do a loco swap you can't simply leave loco A in the depot at the end of its turn of duty and steam loco B the next day; you have to have both locos in steam on the same day to make that swap and these will happen quite regularly for boiler washouts and maintenance. You've also suggested a standby diesel loco at Barnstaple which is an admirable idea but again one that requires resources to provide. There's also the manpower aspect to consider. Who does the FTR? Do you have a fitter travel each day or do you provide someone solely for Barnstaple and, if so, what does he do once the loco is off shed?

 

Unfortunately that is a JPEG and the writing is illegible. Is it clearer on the NDDC portal? If so, could we have a link, please?

 

There seems to be the assumption that Barnstaple would be the starting point and the major station. For reasons I've already pointed out it probably won't be. Originally yes, but not now with the proposed Park and Ride, Whistlandpound and Exmoor Gateway.

 

All possible, maybe even plausible. But what is the strategy, and how will it be delivered?

I have two major questions about the approach you’ve set out.

The first is commercial, where you dismiss Barnstaple as a traffic source. I’ve stayed there plenty of times, and it is both a hub and home to a number of decent sized hotels. From experience, those hotels do good business with coach parties, and they are only 10-20 minutes walk from Pilton. That’s before considering it’s ability to draw traffic from further afield, which might be deterred by the drive up the A39. If Barumites won’t get up early, why will grockles elsewhere, who then have to drive to Blackmoor?

That leads to my second question, which is about operations. One of the common features I’ve seen in discussion of railways with operating bases away from the key traffic source is that of compromise. The Bluebell struggles to service beginning/end of day demand from East Grinstead. NYMR is wrestling with the balance between Grosmont (metropolitan compared only to Blackmoor) and Pickering. And I’ve seen plenty of discussion about shift patterns and volunteer availability on GWSR being a constraint since the extension to Broadway opened.

These may be non-issues, but I’d like to see strategy thinking seriously about them now, before decisions get locked in. Money will always be tight, so will the availability of staff (especially volunteers). Strategy needs to consider those aspects before it locks in something that future generations will curse this generation for.


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IF Blackmoor becomes the main starting point then all well and good but it is a big 'if'. I doubt that the L&B have a business plan for the fully reinstated line so we can't look to that for projections, hypothetical or otherwise.

 

Given how long it would take to reinstate the line, even if the cash was in the bank now I suspect that any attempt to draw up a business plan would be a waste of time

 

I wonder if two things have become confused here. A day to day running shed is best where your services begin and end. But a fully fledged maintenance shed can be anywhere as there is not constant access .. Once a vehicle goes in, it stays for a while. Witness Herston or Williton v Swanage and Minehead.
Ian

 

A 'works' certainly but a running shed needs to be more than just four walls and a roof over one or two tracks. It needs the facilities to do all the running maintenance, such as boiler washouts and lifting locos for the likes of axlebox repairs, even if you send the boxes away to the works to be done. There's a good argument for splitting the running shed and workshops but there's an equally good argument for combining them.