Swanage Railway General Discussion

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Totally disagree, they are clean and functionable

 

Do they still have the bog roll on the back of the door, a considerable distance away from the toilet itself?

 

And actually work unlike those hole in the wall multi purpose things the railway and council use in Swanage that I can rarely get to operate at all.

 

Have you any idea how much a ‘recognised good chef’ will cost you these days? And I’m not talking someone like Tom Kerridge or someone of that ilk, you want someone half good, you’re going to have to pay a decent amount for their time.

 

Makes one wonder how any of the restaurants where they work can exist, then? I'm not saying that the railways should employ them as full time chefs, but I'm willing to bet that some of the more up and coming ones would not be averse to acting as menu consultants, especially if they get some publicity out of it.

 

From my wide reading of this site over many years, it seems to me unusual for you to miss an opportunity to laud and magnify the name of the IOWSR. It is entirely to your credit to acknowledge - as above - that your understanding of matters pertaining to the IOWSR is not absolute or complete. However, in the light of that acknowledgment, it might perhaps be considered a good thing (for a number of us, if not necessarily yourself) if you could moderate your pontification on issues relating to other railways (of which your knowledge is presumably less than that of your knowledge of the IOWSR), particularly when detrimentally compared to the IOWSR (of which we now know that you do not know everything).

 

You’re going to make the bookie a little bit wealthier then!

Seriously myself , colleagues and my gaffers deal with everyone from ordinary customers who just fancy a beer with their tea to people with Michelin stars.
If your up and coming and you even want to put your name as a ‘menu consultant’ then it’s got to be bang on every time, It’s really not as simple as what you suggest.

For hospitality though something that could be done is maybe doing what our local college does and has an evening where there’s a menu chosen by and served by the students. It’s a sensible price and customers know that whilst it might not be the best service, it’s a bunch of youngsters doing their best.

 

That's a bit grandiloquent. Catering is noted for generating substantial profits but equally hefty losses. It has been lucrative on the IOWSR for many years but I have had no personal experience. Hence referring a sensible enquiry to an appropriate quarter.

 

What a great idea, providing an opportunity for students.

 

One of the points not drawn out here is the capital cost of doing dining trains. If you have a dedicated set, that has to be overhauled, maintained, stored etc. So it is only really viable if you run a considerable number of trains with a considerable number of customers each time. It was one of the points I found surprising some years ago when there was a similar discussion on the WSR thread: the Quantock Belle set as I recall at the time only had about 50 seats, and ran fairly irregularly - even if it met its direct operating cost, it can't have come remotely close to covering the cost of capital tied up in the set. On the Bluebell we have recently sold a Pullman that had - probably somewhat inadvisably - been bought to strengthen the Pullman set. On closer inspection, the estimate for overhaul was £600k and it only had 22 seats: the numbers simply didn't add up especially with an alternative vehicle available that could carry 42.

Anything that can be consumed on the normal running set - whether that is a hamper as on the IoWSR, or the more typical Fish & Chips / Rail Ale type trains - potentially avoids much of that problem, provided the carriages don't suffer undue damage from having food consumed on them.

Tom

 

IOWSR is quite isolated from civilisation though, so it has a captive market. A couple of pubs within walking distance, but along main roads with no paths alongside. So if you go to the railway for the day, unless you bring your own food the only place to eat is at the railway itself. How many restaurants, cafes, fish and chip shops, supermarkets, corner shops, etc. are within walking distance of Swanage or Corfe Castle?

If the railway is offering on train dining it needs to be something that makes it stand out a bit from the rest, especially now. There's also the issue of staffing as other lines are finding out - there isn't an unlimited supply of waiting staff any more.

Don't forget rising costs as well. Swanage can't easily tack a couple of extra coaches on so the diner generally has to be a dedicated train. Does it cover its costs? Some lines are finding out their kitchen cars need a lot of work doing to them, which isn't cheap.

 

Swanage Railway has / had a year round full time chef for the Wessex Belle. As the Wessex Belle has not run this year he has been occupied in managing the static catering operation and staffing the "kiosk" in the booking hall at Swanage.

Going forward the question has to be asked, inevitably, what does this member of staff do in the period November - March when scheduled services are not operating? Perhaps they could assist with the Polar Express?

 

I am a former chef, i trained at a cookery school, got my diplomas, then left the trade after about 5 years, I was involved with the Watercress belle, whilst i used to volunteer at the MHR, it came about by sheer chance, i got talking to a friend, and he used to work as one of the chefs, and he persuaded me to join him as assistant one day, i didnt let on that a was professionally trained, but it soon became clear, that i knew what i was doing, and from that, i was asked would i like to be chef next time, and that involved setting the menu, but you had too do it to a cost, i found it quite interesting, and put forward something that would be easy but classy, and would be achievable with the capabilities of the kitchen car, So came tha day, i turned up, and we had a full train, and this menu, that had not been tried before went down a treat, afterwards i did something no other chef did, i walked my team, trough the train, asking if they enjoyed their meal, listening to comments, making mental notes to help to make the service better, the train manager was reluctant to join me, but agreed, and she admitted afterwards it was a very good way to get feedback, at the same time i was also an active member of the footplate, and the next week end, i saw a couple that were on the dining train, who found it funny that one week end i would be cooking a 5 course meal, and another, feeding coal into a firebox.

 

The Wessex Belle Train Manager would always speak to each diner in much the same way as you have outlined. I think the challenge for SRC (indeed many heritage railways) is to be able to operate a dining train viably when all the costs have been taken into account. As others have referred to above, if you have a dedicated set including a fully fitted kitchen car, then quite a sum of money needs to be set aside each year for the periodic overhauls. SRC used to carry between 5000 and 6000 diners year. When you look at the cost of the overhauls, the frequency (period of time between overhauls) and then divide that by the number of diners over the same period of time it works out at quite a sum per diner.

Personally I think it would be a great shame if the Wessex Belle didnt reappear but given the finances perhaps there is a more viable offering which can be delivered on service trains with a dining car attached or using Car 14. There are many pros and cons with each approach.

 

That’s about £27K per seat according to my guessing stick. Don’t know how much the BB charge but it would have to be filled for several years to break even.

 

I've just done a back of fag packet calculation that has come up with a figure of about 3-4 years. That's based on NYMR-like usage, which I think is a couple of nights and a couple of lunchtimes per week. Of course there are a lot of unknowns in there, for example wine is normally an extra on dining services, but such purchases might be a lot lower on a lunchtime one. If the asset can be filled and worked harder, so much the better of course. I think you'd probably be looking at around a 10year interval between overhauls, but if the initial overhaul costs 600K I think the next one is unlikely to be as expensive, particularly if the vehicle is looked after well - as they tend to be.

 

I’d fag-packeted it as £20k per year based on the overhaul being good for 30 years - that still ignores any running maintenance, or the interest due on £600k of capital. On the basis of a 90% occupancy of a 22 seat vehicle, it would add £10 per ticket even if you ran 100 trips per year. (Which we used to, but not sure if we still do). A 42 seat vehicle - even if the overhaul is the same cost, which I don’t think it will be - cuts that to a more realistic £5 on the ticket price.

There are many lines that have on-train dining operations, but I wonder if the market will thin out to a smaller number of high-end operations. I suspect that for many railways for many years they covered their face in direct operating costs while using residual life in the carriages used to service them, but as heavy carriage overhauls become due, there will be a realisation that the margin at realistic ticket prices won’t cover the cost of overhauls. I can see many Mark 1s (and maybe some Pullmans) acquired in the past for dining trains going on the market in years to come as railways divest from that service as too capital-intensive. Looking at the Swanage Railway from afar, with siding space at a premium, no undercover storage and a seaside (= salty air) location, you’d have to feel that concentrating on the core passenger carriages has to be the priority for carriage overhauls.

Tom

 

The current update from the Chairman of the Swanage Railway Trust indicates they hope to resume work on the carriage shed in January 2024 finance permitting.

IMHO, and I think this is a view put forward by at least one candidate for election to the Swanage Railway Trust, creating undercover storage is an absolute priority as the lack of storage increases the cost of carriage overhauls (and reduces the time between overhauls) very considerably indeed.

I think that SRC needs to consider its future carriage requirement very carefully indeed. If it is going to run fewer services on fewer days what size and composition should the carriage fleet be? Yes there are always nice to haves particularly to go with the T3 and T9 but it needs to strike a balance between what it would like to have, what it needs to have and what it can afford / manage to maintain.

If the dining set was sold for example would this generate sufficient funds for a further carriage shed (assuming that there is a suitable location) for one to be built?

 

I think you are right about the high end of the market having potential Tom. Belmond, Northern Belle and Statesman have proved that on the mainline. So the GA at the Bluebell would fit that, but I am unsure about what other lines may have such high end stock.
There will always be a market for some sort of food related product as shown by the pre Covid products many HR offered. However it was noticeable at Swanage that the year that the Sunday lunch train just ticked over £50 per ticket (only by about £3 from memory suddenly there were empty seats on trains when they used to sell out months before. Of course post Covid and high inflation that tipping point could be £70 now.
But if you compare most HR offerings with a Mk1 to a mainline tour then depending on who use choose you are looking at around £100 to £165 for the food. So at the lower end of those two maybe £70 for dinner and £30 for breakfast? Of course you have to buy a travel ticket as well but they are normally all day events using paid staff. Main line trips also make you pay more for a table for two, not sure HR lines do or did. I suspect these days with volunteer and hospitality staff shortages there would not be many (also a few loyalists) who would want to give up their time to man these trains when they could get minimum wage or more in a pub or restaurant, who are all desperate for staff and I suspect have to be quite flexible on hours as well.
What that food product is that should be offered,
I am probably one of the most unqualified to ask, I hate eating in restaurants and once on a steward trip turned down a sit down meal (forget now why there was excess food and spare seats) in favour of eating his own cheese sandwiches in the brake so I could watch the loco along the sea wall.
But getting back to Swanage the set looks in need of a fair amount of work to my untrained eye (apart from the vandalistion) and the railway does not have the facilities to undertake an overhaul on 5 (or maybe 4) coaches at the same time, so that means subcontract with associated higher costs. Would the railway ever get any ROI let alone one worth having?
The two coaches of the 5 that are passenger coaches I guess could be used as a First Class offering on each regular service for a premium as was done when the Bulleid with first class compartments ran. Folks do seem to cough up for First Class on HR lines.


If the dining set was sold for example would this generate sufficient funds for a further carriage shed (assuming that there is a suitable location) for one to be built?[/QUOTE]
I do not know what a Mk1 in need of an overhaul is worth, obviously scrap value, but I guess it may pay for the light bulbs in the carriage shed.