Flying Scotsman

Do you then object to the idea of alternating the chimneys & liveries at overhaul times?

The loco’s last few years in service had, I’ll grant you, fewer ‘historical events’. Nevertheless the conversion to double-chimney & deflectors is an interesting part of its history showing BR’s judgement (including at that time regional board member - Alan Pegler) that even in their twilight years, additional improvements to the A3s were still worthwhile. All part of the same story.

Aspects of any loco’s story not reflected in the current livery can still be brought to life in the same way as for locos and classes which no longer exist - through words and pictures.

 

Was it really that late? Because I certainly remember walking across fields in Stanground late at night with the late Mrs TGH to see it when it went to be turned at the Whitemoor Triangle. And that would have been before we were married (1987). IIRC the run it then went on was the subject of a mass trespass somewhere near Grantham.

 

You make a good point, but skip a wider one - which is that Flying Scotsman in it's current physical condition is more nearly a BR machine than any other. @Johnb and I have very different views on how museum authenticity should be approached, but I do respect his starting point that paint and physical condition should be aligned, and that there is a cut-off at withdrawal by BR.

If we're using paint to tell a different part of the story, my follow-on question is to ask how that story is shared. I can see how that might be done in a museum display, but for a main line locomotive which is now, quite frankly, famous for being famous?

 

A very good point considering that Flying Scotsman was an A3 for less than one year of its LNER life.

 

No! I object to the idea that the locomotive should wear BR green forever on the basis of a spurious argument.

Fundamentally not true.

A3 boiler, superheater headers fitted in LNER days, pre nationalisation. She was in LNER livery as No.103 at that point having been wartime black as 103 and 502 prior. So she emphatically was an A3 in LNER days prior to British Railways.

She was swapped from RHD to LHD in 1953 off the top of my head.

The corridor tender was replaced in 1964 for Pegler, giving her back the LNER tender type she had had in the 1920s and early 1930s before it was swapped for an A4 non-corridor pre second world war.

The only BR era changes are RHD to LHD, double chimney from single chimney and deflectors. The former, you accept that you won't change the driving position, the latter you can change more easily.

The livery for the locomotive and tender is undoubtedly more authentic in LNER apple green. That tender is only "authentic" in LNER livery when attached to Scotsman, particularly after its square ended rear sheets (a hangover from being coupled to one of the A4s for the 1948 exchange trials) was lost through an overhaul in the 1990s.

You do it by making sure the locomotive has the range of parts that can allow for a swapping of form to suit function. Arguably single chimney form allows the greatest array of liveries (LNER apple green, wartime black, LNER post war livery, express passenger blue and BR dark green) so you can take your pick.

The argument has been done to death. People have paid for an apple green Scotsman since it was bought by the NRM. For god's sake, the original club set up to support the loco wasn't called the 60103 Club but the 4472 club!

I accept it's not going to happen currently but a plan must be made for future changes that will allow it to go back to LNER apple green. That should have happened for the LNER centenary, an event and missed opportunity we cannot get back.

 

But the point is that it was rebuilt as an A3 for the LNER. Not BR.

 

All this blather could be avoided if you just referred to the canonical source of livery/chimney/tender configuration for Scotsman…



Simon

 

Does anyone foresee a future when further new-build projects may be sought (yes, I realise I'm assuming lots of things here), and where a new A3 is built allowing 4472 to remain, like Mallard as a museum piece?

 

I hope not - the whole point of owning Scotsman is to run it for the nation.

(on a side note, I am sick to death of "plinthists" - ! )

 

'll be

It'll be invited onto I'm a celebrity get me out of here soon ...

Tom

 

What is the probability the NRM will have Scotsman overhauled again when the current stint is over I wonder (in two/three or so years)? Looking at the way the NRM has gone over the last decade does not fill be with much confidence.

 

None of that is factually incorrect and no where did I dispute that fact. What I challange is your assertion that you cannot tell the Flying Scotsman story without it being in LNER apple green - that is what is factually incorrect. The story can be told in many different ways and a coat of paint, important though it may be to some, is not the only way to tell that story. To say differently is to show an blinkered degree of prejudice.

For what it is worth, I personally would love to see it running again in the Pegler style of compromise livery but I don't regard it as the be all and end all of the loco. To me what is more important is the fact that it is still running - well, sort of - and giving great pleasure to a vast ammount of people. Long may it continue to do so in whatever paint scheme it is wearing.

Peter

 

I absolutely admit a bias/prejudice. However I would counter that by saying that presenting the story of Flying Scotsman is an entirely visual medium, and seeing it in apple green livery with a single chimney would undoubtedly tell its story better.

Well on that we can happily agree.

 

Maybe I am unique in this but I have a lot more confidence in the NRM these days and I think the fact they've put Scotsman out for tender again tells its own story.

 

Of course it is. It says so on the tin. And it’s in apple green. The fact the cab says 60163 is irrelevant

 

I was lucky enough to see Scotsman in the early 60s and, as a young kid, immediately thought the smoke deflectors carried by her looked much better than the Bulleids I was more used to. Lets keep her in her current configuration. Livery wise I will be happy with anything except black

 

I was thinking of the line "At 100 miles per hour she was the fastest in the land".

 

If it said 60163 I think there would be an issue...

 

My brother was lucky enough to see the end of steam on the ECML and many prototype diesels but for him, an A3 with German deflectors was very much his favourite. He particularly recalls a immaculate Manna running light engine

 

I suppose one could argue that she was at the time of achieving the ton but I suspect the lyricist wasn’t thinking along those lines.