Flying Scotsman

Plus a blastpipe cap, petticoat, ejector exhaust ring, associated piping, new spark arrestor, possible new blastpipe base, correct handrails on the outside of the smokebox, any more. It soon mounts up.

 

Note that I said "COULD" affect main line access. I am not an engineer but when I hear the NRM state that Kylchap double chimney and German-style windshields have improved the main line performance of 4472 / 60103 then that suggests that the single chimney style is inferior with potential consequences (yet to be defined) for main line activity on the modern railway network. I am open to suggestions to the contrary.

 

BR's decision to give A3s double Kylchap exhausts, so close to the end of steam operation, demonstrates that the improvement in performance was substantial. Therefore converting FS back to single chimney would mean the need to run it sometimes with a shorter train and/or to have diesel assistance more often. That would have some effect on the economics of using it on railtours, which would add to the cost of the conversion in itself. Who can say whether its appeal to customers would improve enough to justify the cost?

 

Sorry gents, but this is ridiculous. The double kylchap and smoke deflectors were fitted to bring about a performance improvement, yes. But the performance improvement over the single chimney is, I would argue, relatively inconsequential to the shorter form trains we see Scotsman pulling today.

Point of info - in their original forms as 180lb locomotives, the Gresley A1s were designed to take 600 ton trains unassisted. In fact this was done in 1922 when a 600-ton test train taken from King’s Cross to Barkston and back by No.1471 (later named Sir Frederick Banbury). That was with a single chimney and a boiler pressed 40lb lower with a worse superheater header fitted and no long lap travel valves!

So again, we're not talking about the single chimney machine being so incapable that it couldn't do the work that we have seen the double chimney machine do.

Perspective is key here.

And again, Green Arrow has an almost identical single chimney setup (it may actually be identical - point of order number 2!) - and was not found wanting on the mainline.

 

It was indeed. I saw her at GWSR, NVR and Llangollen* in the 1993/94 period when she was in BR green with deflectors. Mass trespass on the ECML was a feature of her 60th anniversary runs on the ECML in February 1983. Blocked the line at Newark and I saw families strolling in the four foot of the down slow on Stoke Bank during one of the runs. Was 4472?LNER green at the time. She was still in LNER green in 1986 when she was out and about on the Marylebone - stratford runs with 4468 and 4498. I rode behind her on a NWCE to Holyhead in the summer of 1990 and on the SVR in the early autumn. Still 4472/LNER green then. Autumn of 1991 saw her doing runs to Kings Lynn as 4472 and she was back on the Shakespeares in autumn 1992 still as 4472. IIRC her main line ticked expired and that's when she went BR green for a tour of heritage railways for the next couple of years.

*Other lines were visited IIRC but she didn't go on the main line in that condition. She reverted to Apple Green in the Marchington era and gained double chimney with deflectors. Remained in that condition under NRM until she was overhauled and then the BR green reapeared.

 

Driver experience at Langollen as 60103 in March 1995 and similar livery on P&DR in July 1993

 

If she was to be returned to the single chimney form, given the known issues with A3 frames, if it does 'detune' her a bit, it isnt necessarily a bad thing.

I'm not necessarily arguing that we should do that but there is clearly a plus point.

On the other hand when 40 year old loco's could run to diesel schedules day after day then that is arguably the A3's greatest achievement.

 

Yes I would think so. Three photo's attached ,Carnforth 15/08/1978. Borwick on the CME Carnforth to Skipton ,25/02/1984. Black and white Kettering 17/10/2000,with a York train.

 

Lets just enjoy having this wonderful engine in steam and out on the mainline.

Well done NRM for keeping her in steam.

 

That'll be when I first saw her then. Well, fancy that - mind playing tricks again.

 

I remember Flying Scotsman coming to Barrow in Furness to the Shipyard to get some work , what was done done ? does she still carry the plaque that was fitted at the time ?what happened to the second water carrier tender does it still exist , I think there was a spare boiler of Salmon Trout at Carnforth Steamtown in the 70s does that still exist ?

 

We're arguing about somewhat different things. Yes, of course FS with a single chimney could haul economically viable trains on today's network; but FS in its present form could haul an extra coach or two (with more paying customers) and/or have more in hand for delays, poor coal, etc.

 

How to know someone didn’t read what you said. How many coaches do you think a 600 ton train is?

How many coaches do you think this A1 is pulling?



https://www.steve-banks.org/mobile/prototype-and-traffic/147-the-flying-scotsman

This is a 220lb A3 with a single chimney pulling the non-stop Flying Scotsman. Count the coaches - this is far heavier and longer than any charter you see today!

Scotsman in preservation with a single chimney has pulled train lengths that are virtually identical, sometimes longer than today’s charters that she has pulled with a double chimney.



https://www.mediastorehouse.com/mem...n-seen-journey-didcot-15th-june-21756118.html

Are we seriously saying Scotsman struggled to pull these trains in its heritage career?

This is a nonsense argument. The double chimney does improve the A3 Pacific, but the single chimney form was still a highly capable machine and proved that throughout LNER and BR days.

The work the single chimney A3s did was far in excess of any rail tour on a daily basis.

 

The second tender is now owned by LSL and is in garter blue livery to match 4464 Bittern which is on static display/in storage there.

 

That’s the time in ‘78 when the spare boiler (A4 type ex Salmon Trout) was fitted which stayed on the engine until ‘06. After which the boilers were then swapped again following a major rebuild of the other one. The A4 boiler was sold to LSL, presumably as a potential spare for Bittern. The Vickers cabside plaques are, thankfully, no longer carried - they were much too large and prominent.

 

The tender is currently at Crewe being prepared for use with Blue Peter and Sir Nigel Gresley. I have a feeling it will be painted into BR express blue.

 

Do you have a photo of the Vickers plaques? I'm intrigued, I didn't know she carried these in preservation.

 

There's an argument - which I think is a cogent one - that it was better served by being painted to match the rolling stock, not the loco and tender (Scotsman with the blue/grey second tender is, I will admit, infinitely better for historical accuracy than the pseudo LNER livery applied previously by Pegler, however iconic that form is).

 

We’re lucky to live in a time of unlimited free money and engineering capacity where valuable assets can sit idle for a time whilst aesthetic preferences are resolved…

I’m definitely not saying that because I don’t have access to that information. I’ve not read anything like the amount you have, and to be clear I entirely get why you want to see the change.

I am though prepared to trust those closer to the loco to determine what’s right for it – the NRM, Ian Riley and his team etc. – they're holding the equivalent of the dynamometer roll for Scotsman…

I would also point out that the information I suspect we've all seen suggests that Scotsman was a wreck before the last overhaul. Logically, there's an argument to be made that says 'yes, Scotsman hauled those trains in single-chimney configuration over a period of time, but at what cost?'.

Now you've lost me completely.

There's no argument I'm aware of, historical or aesthetic, for a steam engine's tender to be painted like a coach, and like it or not, with or without precedent, Pegler established an identity for Scotsman with its double tenders that's also (to a lesser extent) subsequently carried through by Hosking to Bittern. Am I missing something?

I remember seeing the blue/grey tender at Steamtown way back when and it looked ridiculous even whilst the whole world was blue and grey…

Simon

 

These are 1983 photographs that show the plaque in situ on the cab sides. The colour shot has an A4 tender (SNG) on loan.