WCME/CME 2024

Actions have consequences. Pretending that WCRC (or any other supplier) should be supported just because of that, when the consequences were predictable and self-imposed, is simply bizarre.

If WCRC were a charity, I might be tempted to agree. But they are a business - and deserve to stand or fall as a business.

 

In the latest Trackside they have spoken to David Smith and he is quoted " It doesn't stack up for us to fit Central Door locking" and " The business will continue even if we don't run any MK1 trains".

 

An interesting public position given what they've said about the Jacobite previously.

 

He also admits Jacobite doesn't stack up with Mk2's , one coach less and addition costs for diesel etc. They do not seem to have asked him if he plans to fit airbrakes to more locos. Also mentions hiring stock from Riviera and Tyseley.

 

Funny you mention aircraft style journeys Al. Because from my many years buting aircraft interiors I can tell you it can take 4 years or sometimes more to retrofit a fleet with a new product. Whilst an airline may advertise "a launch" and perhaps not actively market the new product until a critical mass of the fleet has been upgraded, I have never known anyone talk about refunding passengers if they end up flying on an unmodified aircraft with an the old product because that is different to some other product also in circulation. Although I agree that sometimes folks get miffed if they go out on the new product and are met with an aircraft not upgraded for the return.
Even on the national network I would expect a 444 on a trip to London, although if I ended up with a 450 I would not be getting a refund, despite being a far less comfortable product. (Although I would still be happy it was not something built in Derby).

 

Much depends on how the service is sold, and the degree to which the substitution with an inferior product is genuinely operational necessity.

 

I disagree totally. The destination plays a big part for me. Hearing the loco, etc has very little to do with it when I travel. The journey could go via whatever route as long as I get there.

I’ve booked on Saphos’ ERE trip on 3rd August. I couldn’t care less what pulls it, whether I’m 1 coach back or 11 back, whether the diesel on the back shoved up Whiteball or anything else.

I’m going because I want to enjoy a day out with 15 SVR friends, enjoying some amazing food onboard, having a drink, having a laugh and going to Kingswear/Dartmouth which is one of my favourite places. The fact we get steam from Taunton to Kingswear and back to Taunton is simply an added bonus. I’d have booked the same trip if it was diesel throughout.

And ultimately isn’t David Smith right? I mean there’s a much greater percentage of Joe Public to Enthusiasts. Advertised right and so on, it’ll be relatively easy to fill a train with them. LSL send flyers through the doors of houses in the same towns as departure points. I’ve had several for the Kidderminster ones. WCR could easily do the same.

Same argument the SVR have had time over, the enthusiast is always going to be important to these ventures. But they won’t override the vast percentage of Joe Public.

 

The market is shifting, and it has been for several years now. RTC and the flagship LSL brands cater to the mass-market. I go with LSL more often than not these days but I don't book on any of their tours for the motive power. In fact, with Saphos tours you often don't know which steam loco it will be at the point that you make your booking. I am also booked on the ERE that Harry mentions above, and will be happy with whatever turns up on the day.

Enthusiast tours still sell well, but that is because they have been specifically designed with the needs of enthusiasts in mind. They are now a "niche market". Think the track bash tours that Pathfinder run (like the Cwmbargoed one in March), the "Forgotten Tracks" tours that UK Railtours run, the "Diesel Explorer" tours that Vintage Trains run, or the Inter-City tours that LSL run. These generally all sell well, and people book on them either for rare track or the motive power. Witness the success of LSL's ScotRail push-pull tours.

It is unusual to see "normals" on tours like these - although UK Railtours seem to be trying something new with their Shrewsbury offering, where they are running a mini-enthusiast tour from Shrewsbury once they have dropped off the regular passengers from the main tour. It will be interesting to see how that hybrid approach works in practice.

 

My conversations with railtour passengers bears out what you say, they might not have a clue about railways but they seem to want to know, we are always asked questions about the engine and sometimes about the rolling stock. I think I've said before its the same on the Belmond where 100% of the passengers aren't railway enthusiasts but a lot of them want to talk to us when we get back to Victoria. In standard more enthusiast passengers but still a lot who are just looking for a day out with a difference. I would add a proviso to that, it does depend on the type of train, the endurance test type will have a lot more pure enthusiasts on board, a good example is the Atlantic Coast Express, off London around eight and not back until past 10 with no real destination.

 

If the ORR are going to ban Mk1s in four years time he's right, it doesn't stack up.

 

I don’t think anybody is arguing with you. My view, which it seems is shared by others on here, is that the motive power is relevant and seeing/hearing it is important. I completely understand we are in the minority though unfortunately.

The good news is that I would much rather have a day on the SVR for example than a mainline tour so preserved railways are benefitting from income rather than rail tour companies.

 

Totally agree here, I think I will be doing a lot more heritage railways this year. Now fares are well above £100 railtours are now very much in special occasion category, £100 = 4 trips on the SVR for me or a couple of trips on the Ffestiniog / WHR.

 

You don’t know I’m in a minority at all. I bet there’s several people who pick railtours based on their destination, etc.

I take your argument with the Jacobite, although again Mallaig is lovely in itself and I’d happily go there on a 156, a Jacobite trip or a Midland Pullman.

But personally I think the LSL Fellsman or Lakelander trips give a much better offering than the CME. I think WCRs best offering up that way is the Pendle Dalesman trips, I’d be more prepared to bet another operator would snap this up than the CME.

 

Oh yes they do. Open access still applies

 

I don't feel sorry for WCRC, though I appreciate the predicament they find themselves in. They took a calculated gamble in taking the ORR to judicial review. Even if they believed they had a strong case, they would have known there was a risk that they would fail, in which case they would have to come up with alternative stock to avoid breaking contracts with customers (such as RTC, Pathfinder). So far, they have done enough, but there's still a lot of uncertainty about how things will play out. The people who do deserve our sympathy and understanding are the charter operators dependent on WCRC to run their trains.

 

Access that may increasingly depend not just on the principle of open access, but also the technology to work on ETCS. We know why there's been no steam on the Cambrian for a decade or more, and the ECML south of Peterborough is already seeing installation work commence.

 

Guessing 34067 tomorrow any updates?
Manchester Departure.

 

Next week isn’t it?