Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

I see.

 

Just a point on those carriages, they have relatively cost the Trust very little and yet drawn in thousands.

One carriage was paid for in entirety by a grant, one was 60% and match funded.

The donations that have come in are specifically for carriages otherwise the money wouldn't have been donated and wouldn't be available for the trust anyway.

We had one donor who died recently who paid for underframes, timber, and also running costs over many many years.

We make them as cheap as we possibly can, we have no posh Boston Lodge works, we make do and mend a terrific amount of the time in an 1800s wooden framed barn which is freezing in winter and boiling in summer.

We are being even more careful by using church pews at very cheap cost and I'm now buying in raw baulk instead of PAR to get costs down even further.

Each carriage takes time to make, if we get a break through and find we need carriages quickly we cannot make them that quick so we try and keep one step ahead.

Ideally in high season we need six at the moment, one in the paint shop, one spare and four running.

CFL may need another carriage so at galas and high season you run two threes with a spare and one in the paint shop....at a pinch you could class V23 as a spare brake at least.

Once you get to a Blackmoor it's two rakes of 4 plus a spare and one in the paint shop or a split line 2 extra carriages with a diesel, or toast racks for BG to WLP.

We keep the knowledge on making them and maintaining them in house, something I think is very important for the railway and is far far cheaper in the long run.

The carriages are high value assets, currently at Woody Bay there is about £1.5 million worth there or more at current commercial build prices.

In extending this railway it isn't all about track, you need the infrastructure to cope with the increase in visitors, an increase in rolling stock, and increase in staff. Visitors will have expectations now knowing how Woody Bay appears today and that will mean they want to see heritage stock, not some Disney set which to me is more akin to a garden railway.

 

Err, not true. I have given to both, and I doubt if I am alone.

 

A huge amount of the donations have been for carriages and by people who are are only interested in that part.

As with all these things, some people will give for track, some for locos, some for carriages and those concerns only.

 

And apologies if I come across a bit sharp there.

I have dedicated 10 years of my life to rebuilding these carriages along with the volunteers and continue to be dedicated to that cause with no wavering whatsoever.

Why, because I believe in this railway despite the obstacles and upsets at this moment in time.

I believe there will come a time when we will need more of our carriages, even if we have to store them for a while now.

When the time comes, we will be glad we did.

 

Michael, I was rude, your donations have been hugely appreciated, as has everyone's. A huge thank you.

 

I can see 21B's point here about only having what we can use, Personally It would be great to have a representative of each type of carriage that ran on the line. But that would be OK if we just had a museum line, I also know that I am not the only one that would like to see one set in SR green to go with LYN, but that is for another day.

Of course we need those carriages that can put bums on seats so to speak so we could end up with more coaches like 7 to 10 and or 11 to 14 just for capacity reasons alone that were built originally.

You have already explained just how you build these coaches, I just wonder if it is not time to think in terms of building a whole lot of doors and other sub-assemblies for stock so that when we do need these other carriages in theory the doors, the seats, and the coach frames themselves it will be like fitting all the pasts of a jigsaw together reasonable quickly.

Of course the ideal train set would be to recreate the last train of nine carriages

 

Well as you know we are doing Number 9 as the Number 7 3rd class open section is so popular, hardly ever vacant even in sideways North Devon rain!

Additionally after the experience of the pandemic we know that we can compartmentalise that class with the sliding shutters similar to Number 11.

Any all weather class is an advantage, so 11,12,13 or 14.

We did consider making parts and storing, even complete carriage kits, and it's still an option, but the problem is that storage and keeping things like doors and frames straight and true. Iroko is a real bitch if its not in a structure and held with its mortice and tenons, bolts and screws etc. Very prone to twist and warp.

To succesfully store kits we would need something like a 20' container with steel racks and strapping to almost literally anchor the frames etc to the sides so there can be no movement at all.

Obviously this increases overall costs.

The most important thing is to make sure we have available any rolling stock the railway needs at any time. Personally I think doing all weather and the centre open 3rds are ideal for now, as yes, bums on seats is what the CIC will need. V23 will provide a spare brake.

I think the next in line might be Number 1 though after 9 and V23, as many seem to have a want for it, its fancy, sexy, has a story and can be used for weddings etc, I can see the reasons.

Edit: I will add here, I've recently spoken to the farmer where our unit is and it's possible we coudd use a high cube 40' container for storage on one of the other farms. With no lamp tops fitted and the running boards removed a carriage will fit inside with 2" to spare in height through the doors. It's even possible we could have an underframe without the bogies (which are a very costly part of a rolling underframe) and have 5" wheeled slow movement trucks instead and that would allow more room in height in storage.

When a carriage is needed, have a hiab side loading container trailered rig pick it up and off it goes. The movement trucks can be swapped out for the proper bogies at Woody Bay and returned for us to use again.

 

@DaveE - did my full-size drawings of the flip-up seats in the open compartment I gave Charles last September reach you ? I found one very frail and partially rotted (but complete) one in a body at Lynbridge (article in forthcoming Magazine on coach body finds in the 60s). I brought it home, but while I was away my father threw it away, fearful of spreading whatever bug there was in it. But my father had derision for my interest along with a similar attitude for anything he was not brought up with, being of the 'old school'. But I had comprehensively recorded it. Picture attached after removal. (Note carriage interiors were scumbled, not white. The seat slats were painted medium brown). There was a 4 inch wood screw screwed into the underside - I have always wondered if that meant there was a (presumably drop-down) leg similar to the adjacent compartment supporting it.

 

It hasn't, and I will chase him on it when I see him this week.

The design at the moment I'm pretty sure Dad copied from Measured and Drawn, obviously we had the problem of one breaking and now reinforce the underside with a steel insert which seems to have worked very well in service at Woody Bay.

I am aware that the current way they have to be manually "flipped up" is a bit of a work around, and originally they would have had sprung hinges, I am looking into these for Carriage 9 and also to retrofit to Carriage 7 when the time allows. It would mean the bar clip affair we have now can the be done away with and have proper return to upright position seats on vacation and should mean less wet seats and bums when it rains!

The wood screw on the underside sounds interesting, when I get the drawing from Charles I'll see where it's situated and put thought to what it may have been for as well, that's a pretty hefty screw to be on those seats.

Edit: Michael, I have sent you a private message on another matter, please check your inbox at the top of the page

 

True, but...I was under the impression that we were talking specifically about the (mis) management of Trust funds.

 

AIUI the longer term planning is for rakes of 5.

 

Not sure if 5 will be practical, at least 4 anyway. 5 and you start having problems with lengths of platforms.

 

Fair comment. But just one of the many challenges that will need decisions on when extensions come. As will a choice between further original carriages and more modern designs, operating lengths and a load of other questions about which how the pre 1935 L&B operated is likely to be a weak guide


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

To give an idea of rake lengths,

4 carriages + 1 loco is about 190'
5 +1 ~230'
6 +1 ~270'
6 + 2 double headed ~300'
The last train in 1935, 9+2 ~420'

 

There were some discussions about this during the planning for Phase 2A. AIUI the default for loops was to be 5 coaches + engine and possibly room for a second engine to allow for double-heading in the event of a failing engine needing assistance. Platforms would be (re) built to suit. The Up platform at WB got careful attention with various ideas about future improvements at the Lynton end

 

One of the biggest factors will be rake length. The longer you make your station platforms the longer you have to have sections of track fairly level for those platforms, and the bigger your problems with gradients in between stations and on entry and exit to them.

There will come a time I dare say when we will do new builds. I don't think it would be much difference in cost using modern methods or traditional tbh, plus a big consideration is visitor expectation.

Ffestiniog have gradually been getting rid of their modern type carriages and focusing more on heritage style, because their visitors have an expectation of when travelling on these old and quaint heritage railways, they expect heritage or heritage style carriages as part of the experience.

The only reason to move to modern style with all the bells and whistles of modern railways is if you expect to be able to tap into a commuter route and local passenger service as part of a national network.

Who knows what the future holds, once cars become the luxury of the very rich again or are banned altogether due to environmental damage we may see many many light railways become the main form of travel and due to the demand we may see costs of making modern carriages once again relatively cheap as so many will be needed.

 

@DaveE no one I know of was opposed to the purchase of OHSI per se, but the whole point of creating LBBC is that it was supposed to remove the need for Trust funds to buy it. Instead, at least £503,000 plus interest came from the Trust (and then 'the six' lied about the Trust's exposure, which didn't exactly help matters.)

The pre-cost of living crisis valuation for the whole premises (including the house) was, I understand, £800k - £1.4m -- with the top value only in cases of compulsory purchase with the associated premium. So, the cost was higher than the highest valuation before the cost of living crisis, which hit profitability of hospitality and pubs hard.

As @Meatman has said, two years of below market rent for the vendor is adding £55k to the cost of acquisition, along with the £50k added for the actual new trackbed, adding more than £100k to the cost. The £250k which was paid for the biomass heater has an actual value of £90-£100k depending on usage and discount rate, per @Isambard! who is the resident expert in these things, so at least £150k too much was paid for that element.

And all of this for what I understand is less land than the was in the prospectus. So - a brilliant result for the vendor, and more than £1m above the fair market price, so not such a great result for the L&B family. And that's before we get to the secured loan from a CIC Director, which raises a whole slew of propriety, governance and ethics questions.

So it's the price, the amount of Trust money locked up in LBBC that will never realistically be released, and the operational risk of running it rather than letting it, which consumes Trust management time and attention that is needed elsewhere. All for a non core asset!

 

Another point then needs to be raised is that this is never going to be a cheap railway to rebuild, I am not against us having brought the OSHI as such, but it was the way it was done and the lack of information at the same time. It feels like we have been done up like a kipper to be honest, if there is one thing that we need to take on board and that is lets not have it happen to us again.

The trouble here as I see it, is we have now opened up Pandora's Box money wise and the next deal is going to cost us even more than estimated. I am not saying it is a good deal far from it, but I still feel it is time to totally refresh the Trust.

Talking about the introduction of some sort of trustee checking as proposed would never have worked as put forward. But what we do need is some sort of independent sub group that can identify the needs of the trust and also create a proper job description for each role. I still don't think that we are in a good place to attract the very best and the sort of people that we need.

Finding good, honest and fresh trustee is not going to be easy, as they simply don't grow on trees, in fact there is a shortage of Trustees out in the charity world right now, so gents if you don't want your legacy to be one of a failed heritage railway trustee it really is time up if as you suggest you all love this railway so much then it time for us to move forward. No disrespect meant to you the serving trustee members, but we can't go forward with a bunch of old white blokes any longer, if we want to appeal to a younger generation to take on our joint legacy and manage this project for the future, then we need to start now to do something about it, other wise we will surely go the same way as the dinosaurs.

 

Must admit Toby, it all loses me. I would have thought it would be far better to have an asset that generates income than sits idle, and being a former station with its historical context and the fact it was only ever going to come available maybe once in a generation or more... We kinda had to grab it any way we could. There are lots of pubs around, but not this particular one and with the only route through that section.