Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

£1 suppliment for a cushion and £2 for a hot water bottle in winter

 

Speedy Boarding for £3 and £2 for a window seat. The opportunities are immense

 

Marketable to whom? It’s a vision that appeals to me, as does the idea of historical accuracy.

But I don’t need convincing! It’s the tourists who want a nice day out that we’ll need to attract. What will get them to part with their hard earned cash? And what will make them tell their friends or write nice things on TripAdvisor?

That’s where learning from north Wales, the Bure Valley, Romney Marsh, Eskdale and elsewhere will be valuable. That’s not about imitating any of those others, but learning from what they’ve done well and badly.


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Would you have thought it credible at the time that the arrival at Woody Bay of carriages 7 and 17 would have increased the number of visitors per year by about 15,000 and sustained it at that level?

In the past hmmm 20 years, and especially more recently visitors are looking for experiences, high quality venues where they can experience times gone by and get away from the pressures of the modern world, or immerse themselves in a story, or learn about something. Along side this is the fascilities available at the venue which usually includes food and drinks, clean toilets, something for kids to do, and so on.

Extremely successful museums and venues such as Bodmin Jail, where there is basically a non operational relic from the past with no option to extend etc, they bring in highly immersive story telling high tech 3d experiences, with huge screens, and animation. Its a phenomenal way they have brought that experience of an old Jail to life.

We don't have to do that, we have the real deal on the tracks, people can experience Victorian/Edwardian travel directly, in the actual carriages that were on the rails at the time.

We could expand hugely on the story telling side, but there is a balance with our venue in that we need to preserve that ambience, of lazy stations, good Devonshire hospitality and friendliness. Something so many comment on, smiling faces friendly staff, good food and a nice quiet morning or afternoon with a bygone age of travel to experience.

Experience is the key now to any museum or heritage attraction, if your visitors go away happy, they will tell others.

In extending the track albeit a short distance it shows that progress is being made behind the scenes, and I believe just as the carriages increased the numbers per year, so too will that small extension if a big noise is made about it.

The good folks of Parracombe.... We just don't know how they are going to really respond yet with CFL. It does address some of their concerns on it being a little further away from the village. Being that little closer might be good for the village in a small increase in foot passengers who might alight at CFL and spend money in the community shop, have lunch in the Fox and Goose, and support those who have B&B's. All these things may help their endeavours on things the village needs and we often see fund raising events for.

Until the planning goes in, we just don't know this time around the level of fores or agaisnts.

Any section we do will cost money, and some things are seemingly costly with no apparent return. At BG we need will need sheds, storage, a workshop even if it's a diesel, things breakdown, or things happen and repairs needed. A platform needs to be created at WLP, somehow a provision for toilets, and so on.

Any extension or addition to this railway enhances visitor experience, the tea rooms have been a huge change in that experience, as were the carriages.

I know and understand the idea that for many of us this railway is about the length it runs, but we do now have that huge responsibity... which will get bigger in time the more we extend and expand... to the visitor and their experience and being in the industry of being a historic and heritage attraction.

 

Experience, to be successful we must think as a visitor, because in the long run, visitors are what will enable the railway to be sustainable.

We advertise as a heritage railway, all hauled by steam, that's actually what draws many in, as many other railways now are running diesels. Visitors don't have to plan around timetables, they come in at any time and see a steam engine. They drive by and see a steam engine, stop and pull in, I've seen that so many times outside Woody Bay while waiting for the bus, even at gone 4pm so you get passing trade.

For other ideas and thoughts we can look at the Great Orme Tram, Lynton & Lynmouth Cliff Railway, etc, which have very much stuck with their origins and heritage.

 

More credible certainly for the reasons you mention about visitor experience. I don’t see 500m more length that has no particular scenic value and ends nowhere in particular enhancing the experience much.

I don’t think that planning to put something in that needs a fair bit of civil engineering, to then take it out again in what I think we all hope is a short time, is a good use of resources.

I don’t see the subject of carriages and locos separately from the development of the railway. We have to balance 1) what will attract visitors 2) what will provide them with a good experience that they want to repeat and tell their friends about 3) what we can afford to operate.

Critical questions are A) where does the balance lie between comfort and amenity and historical accuracy? B) what service pattern and train formation will allow the greatest number of visitors at a sustainable cost.

if we can find solid answers to these questions we will be able to decide what type of railway we need to build. And bear in mind that if the answer is battery electric lightweight railcars with Pullman seats, that doesn’t stop, and may in fact also require, that there are replica carriages and locomotives.

 

The proposed extension to Cricket Field Lane would add considerable variety to the visitor experience. The train would dive into cuttings and underneath two road bridges. That additional length of track might not be very long but the view from the carriage windows and the overall 'feel' of that part of the journey will indeed be completely different.
Above all, this extension would show to the world that the L&BR IS extending. Mike

 

With respect, other than your final sentence I must disagree. 'Cuttings and two road bridges' - so what? Where is the 'wow' factor? It puts me in the mind of those seaside miniature railways which used to add an artificial tunnel as if they were some sort of giant model railway. Some people may well travel just for 'the journey', but equally there are other who will want a journey that actually takes them to somewhere where they can see and do something.

I am far more in agreement with @21B when he says "I cannot for the life of me see how adding an expensive and problematic 500m extra run will add one single additional passenger let alone 10,000 per year. It’s frankly not credible. It is also a waste of money because everything done at CFL will have to be undone. It WILL antagonise locals and it neither enhances the visitor experience nor taps into a new source of traffic".

 

Sorry Dave but i really do have to pick you up on this, as much as i think the carriages are exceptional works of craftsmanship they are in fact replica's with some 'original' pieces and quotes as such are in my opinion misleading

 

Speaking as a long-time WSR volunteer and also occasional 'tourist visitor', IMHO the bulk of traffic can probably be divided into two main groups.

Firstly, there are those who drive to Bishops Lydeard in the morning, use it as a P&R for a train journey to Minehead (or maybe Dunster or Watchet etc) and then return later in the afternoon. They are rarely interested in visiting the intervening stations as well.

Secondly, there are those who are day or week-long 'tourist visitors' at the Minehead/Dunster area who fancy a 'stream train ride' as part of they stay. Many do short(ish) return trips from MD to Blue Anchor or Watchet, especially the latter as it has much else to see when you get there. I would argue that only the 'serious enthusiast' is likely to do the whole trip from MD to BL and back because of (a) the sheer amount of time that it takes, (b) the cost (especially if you have a family in tow) and (c) the fact that - let's be honest - on the average day there is very little to see or do at BL other than to watch the engine run-round and then come back. [OK, so there is the excellent Gauge Museum and the shop and cafe, but get your timings wrong and it could be a long wait for the next train back). On the other hand, MD-WT is half the time, half the cost, and comes with the benefit of easily accessible off-railway attractions as well.

@idkcab will probably tell me now that I've got it all wrong

 

As regards extensions, hold back on any plans until you know the financial standing of the trust, and CIC, then, and only then, can you think about extending,

 

@21B (who, as a former GM of a major heritage line, speaks with real authority on this) notes, getting to 100k+ visitors per annum for a 10 mile railway (Woody Bay - Chelfham is 11 miles) won't be easy, and it certainly won't be automatic because the line is longer.

My own sense is that there will be value in a set of different offerings. Short trains replicating the L&B as it was are fine as long as they are marketed as an actual experience (@DaveE correctly mentions school groups, for instance) but for longer periods on the train where the ride and the scenery are the attraction we're looking at a different market - and that will have different needs and these are probably met by different trains. This is an 'as well as' heritage trains and replica MWs, not instead of.

The economics will come play here: think about how many carriages you need to fill to get to 100k passengers a year. And then think about the number of 4 or 5 coach trains you'd need to provide to meet that - and that tells you a story about the intensity of the service required on a 10 mile railway. The operational considerations of double headed trains (crews alone) are hard, and the economics are painful from the get go - the 9 coach 'last day' special we've all seen pictures of will have to be a Gala attraction only, I'd suggest.

What this points to for me is infrastructure designed to take 7 or 8 coach/van trains, and an openness to motive power that could pull modern coaches (green WHR ones as a mental picture) comfortably on gradients up to 1-in-40 (in case we need that to get around Wistlanpound dam). This is unlikely to be within the capability of even an evolved Manning Wardle, and so I'd argue that we need a kinematic envelope to allow for larger locomotives to run on the completed railway - I'm very interested in how the NG15 2-8-2 gets on the WHR - with two and a half it would seem to be a good fit for eight coaches on the L&B.

These are mostly questions for the future, but we do have to design in the flexibility to allow us to do it in future now.

 

That's a question many have debated over the years. Is it a replica or is it a rebuild... Wasn't there a loco with only one or two parts that were original but it was still classed as a rebuild?

For the same reason that we recently saw the update on the signal box with a sash that has 30 pieces of timber inlet to replace all the rotten parts, it's still the original and continues it's life and story with the original parts it has.

 

We can - and should. But we also need to consider the modern posterior, and the levels of comfort that it expects. @flying scotsman123 gives examples from the VoR; they may well be part of the answer.

But there is a huge difference between a 1 mile railway with a 1/2 hour round trip, and a 10 mile railway with an hour plus end to end journey. About 10 years ago, en route to Cornwall on a family holiday, I persuaded the family to stop at Woody Bay for a coffee - and got myself a ride out of it! I couldn't have pulled that off in anything like the same way if there'd been an end to end journey (say Woody Bay - Wistlandpound). My wife still hasn't forgiven me for, later in the same holiday, persuading her to drop the kids and I off at Blue Anchor and pick us up at Bishops Lydeard - she was at Bishops Lydeard before we were at Washford. Similarly, she won't travel on the NYMR teaks - because those seats aggravate her back in a way that even Mk1s don't.

These are just examples, but illustrations of the many factors that will have to be considered as the railway develops from a museum line to a "proper" railway, and the demands on it change in response.

I will also agree with @RailWest on the CFL extension. I'm happy to take your word for it that the views are different, but it is still a short extension on a sub-1 hour visit. I'm a Branch Line Society member - it would barely cause me to move. I don't see what the special attraction for "ordinary" tourists is.

 

Absolutely Tobbes. At the end of the day it must be a viable business. It's critical that decisions made now are compatible with future operational requirements. For example, Ian Gaylor & Mike Nelson did an outstanding job with Lyn, creating a modern loco which looks historically accurate. Yet the MWs are bring built with "known technology", ie an 1890s design with a steam dryer. Imagine the consequences of having a fleet of locos which are unable to haul commercial loads?



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No, it's not that difficult.

If we opened for 26 weeks of the year, had four journeys per day with a four carriage rake. That rake carries ~200 people.

26x7 = 182 days.
4 journeys per day = 800 passengers
800 passengers x 182 days = 145,600.

That's only running at full capacity for half the year for one rake.

During high season we already have 500 passenger days.

Or we could look at it another way..

100,000 passengers ÷ 200 per full four carriage train = 500 round trips.
500 ÷ 182 days in a half year = 2.7 round trips.

3 round trips per day with one rake would do it.

Obviously the pattern would differ from day to day and not be uniform throughout the season which is where you have two rakes in very high season, and one rake for the fringes of the season.

As it is, I can see the railway needing a quite complex solution to a complex set of dynamics once we do WB to WLP where our visitors may park at BG, and some may go to WLP for a picnic and a walk, which may require interim shuttles depending on demand, but the BG to WB is more likely to warrant full steam haul as they will be the experience hunting visitors especially if there is a museum located at Woody Bay and the tea rooms still in existence.

 

The carriages are replicas, its as simple as that, modern underframes and the majority of the carriage is newly built, they simply cannot be marketed as 'original' are the bogies even the same L&B design, as for the signal box id say if the old timber content is approx 75% - 50% then its a restoration once it falls below 50% its most definitely a replica with some 'original 'parts.
The Platelayers hut i rebuilt is nothing more than a replica, its built on what was left of the remaining walls, its got a new door, second hand tin for the roof to give a 'lived in' feel but its most definitely not original

 

Geesh matey, your Platelayers hut is a rebuild, and a great job too, stop underselling yourself