Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

What this shows is that operating 4 trips a day for six months a year means a capacity of 145,600, @DaveE. Every train each day every day would need to be nearly 70% full to meet the 100,000 journey target - surely unrealisitic for a wet Wednesday afternoon in April.

So yes, it is that difficult.

Great! How many, how often?

100% load factors are hardly a great starting point as they'll rarely if ever be the average. Let's work on a healthy 60% load factor and a five carriage train of 240 seats, give or take - about 144 passengers per train.

100,000 trips on a 10-ish mile railway is just under 700 trains. On the basis of an hourly departure from Woody Bay to Snapper - 64 to 70 mins journey time in the 1935 timetable - a set will take about 2h 50mins to get back to Woody Bay, so presumably you'd need three sets for an hourly service. An hourly service from Woody Bay 10.30am would be departures at

1030 - set 1
1130 - set 2
1230 - set 3
1330 - set 1 (arrived back at Woody Bay at 1320)
1430 - set 2 (arrived back at Woody Bay at 1420)
1530 - set 3 (arrived back at Woody Bay at 1520)
1630 - set 1 (arrived back at Woody Bay at 1620) to BG / Rowley Moor
1730 - set 2 (arrived back at Woody Bay at 1720) to BG / Rowley Moor

Depending on where the trains are stored and maintained (Rowley Moor, presumably) set 3 would presumably terminate at BG on the return from Snapper.

So at least three train sets, no?

 

I'll give the railway this claim - if a Spitfire can be "original" with barely anything left, then these are no different in spirit.

 

Does that mean LYN is original too, now that she has the original LAMP on her

 

...complete with the original wick and lamp oil ???

 

I'll agree that it's poor copy - the claim needs to be a lot more precise to stack up

 

However everyone knows it isn’t really original. If a previous owner scrapped or burned or otherwise destroyed a vehicle I think we should accept it ceased to exist, for ever, even if a few surviving components are reusable. A wonderful new-build replica should be celebrated as a remarkable achievement in its own right.

 

It should - and the railway should make more of the tremendous work that @DaveE and L&B East do to get these carriages out.

 

Hi Isambard I totally agree with you on this, I don't not like the Manning Wardle's But I do feel that talking with Ian Gaylor at the time and since his view is that we could do much better, since he is someone who follows such luminaires as Chapelon etc I think he is the sort of guy we need to be listening too.

 

The coaches may look original, but they are really replicas, but I see no problem in that, they look the part, and to those travelling in them, they feel the part, very very few railways will have original stock, many will have been so rebuilt over the years that very little original material will remain, but to the people looking at, and riding in them, to them it's an old carriage,

 

Don't forget that some of the 1960's centennial coaches on the FR have been rebuild at least once since then.

 

We also need to be careful to think about what we're trying to achieve, and make sure that we don't end up with the tail wagging the dog. I'm absolutely up for doing something more advanced - power/weight ratios are going to be a key challenge - but the history of advanced steam engineering here isn't encouraging for its adoption rather than recreating historic designs.

If we get (say) a 10 mile run on the L&B in reasonable time, then the focus needs to be on what will be available for when the railway extends, given the constraints of platform lengths, loading gauge, etc.

 

If you are only achieving 60% capacity, why would you be running 5 carriages?

Ffestiniog run a service every 1.5 hrs on a 13.5 mile track, their turnaround is 2.5hrs.

Their run time is 1hr 15mins including stops with a 15-20min turnaround time in Blaenau.

Once an engine is hot and that fire is liquid you don't want to stop too long, keep it going, the quicker you can turn around the better, less stress on the loco in the long run.

Set 1 leaves BG at 08.30 to arrive at Snap at 09.15.
Set 2 leaves BG at 09.00 to arrive at WB at 09.15

Both then leave at 09.30, and thereafter a train leaves from either end every 1.5hrs.

This gives a timetable of...

09.30
11.00
12.30
14.00
15.30
From either end.

Last train into WB arrives at 16.40, and returns to BG by 17.15.

Last train into Snap arrives at 16.40, and returns to BG by 17.30.

All told we have 10 complete journeys from one end to the other with ~200 seats and 2,000 passenger journeys. Not sure how it's worked out on returns and I expect there is a formula for single to return ratios. But let's adjust ad hoc, let's assume all return and say 1,000 passenger journeys for one day.

3 months of high season, 13 weeks x 7 = 91 days x 1,000 = 91,000 passenger journeys.

We haven't even touched galas, event days, santa specials etc or lower season traffic.

 

And thank you everyone for your kind words on the carriages, it does mean alot to us, it is a lot of hard work that very few get to see.

I personally don't really look for glory, my satisfaction is just sitting quietly at Woody Bay and seeing so many enjoying what we have recreated, the smiling faces on all ages, the kids learning and just generally enjoying a great day out.

 

How would those loads balance? If you need 5 coaches for some of those trains, because they're running at 85% of capacity (I'm assuming 1 coach = 20% of capacity), but there's only 10 people on the 08:30 from BG, what's your average utilisation? To get to 60% utilisation on that timetable, you need to have an average of 120 people on every train. If you've a dead period - lunchtime, say - then that means you've got to have a lot more on the other trains. But you're limited to 200 because you can't take standing passengers.

That's where market research and analysis will really pay off, as they'll give an insight into how much cash you can expect to take through the farebox - the real test.

I like the ambition. But I've seen what's happened when someone's done their figures the way you have, and not allowed for popular/unpopular times - they were disappointed in the results.

 

Of course it needs a closer look. And yes, you would have spare carriages to hitch on if it gets busy.
But if you work on a four, and have to hitch a 5th, that's a bonus.
The early morning and return to base in the evenings I haven't accounted for, so you will have 10 single runs from end to end, plus the early and late runs from and to BG.

 

And that's where I'm interested in costs and benefits, bearing in mind that middle of day shunting is disapproved of (and even more so splitting and joining).

My concern, if I look at standard gauge railways I've visited, is that 200 will be way under demand at certain times, but way over at others.

Which takes us back to the choices about motive power, stock, and track layouts.

 

A completely off topic post here.

If anyone is interested in Mother Nature and the creation of new land, take a look at this absolutely fascinating live feed from Iceland. Mesmerising and probably the best high quality footage you will see of a volcano.

Not for discussion! Just something to while a few minutes and chill out to.

https://www.youtube.com/live/FZmN2daZW9g?feature=shared

 

Because 60% is an average, and the train sets we need to procure will need to have capacity for 100%, and as we're talking about tomorrow and a decade or two from now we need to future proof the railway.

The FR/WHR appears to increasingly operate on a book before you travel basis, which is great for train planning and yield, but probably not so great for those who turn up on the day. This is an interesting question about which way a future L&B would want to work, because I don't see a lot of people waiting around for more than an hour to ride the train.

Fair, but the timetable also needs to be robust and reliable. One problem with using the 1935 sectional running times is that the station dwell times for tourism today - especially with more less mobile passengers - will be rather longer than the 30 seconds or one minute often seen in the 1935 timetable.

This may well be what the railway looks like - and it is a much more tourist friendly scheme than the 1935 timetable which had 3 hour gaps in what is prime tourism time - even if this means dismissing the demand leaving Barnstaple / Snapper at 0530!

But the question remains: at the principal joining places - presumably Blackmoor Gate, Chelfham with wherever in Barnstaple and whatever the northern terminus is coming in lower down (I expect most vistors to arrive by car, and so we'll want them to go to the largest carparks to avoid disappointment) - how long will it be between trains?

A related question which will drive infrastructure is where will the two trains cross? (I appreciate for galas we will need to design signalling and infrastructure to accomodate three or potentially four trains running, but lets assume the base case is two train sets out per day.) In the 1935 timetable trains using the whole line crossed at Blackmoor or Chelfham, but is this a safe assumption for the shorter line? I can't see trains crossing at Chelfham if the terminus is Snapper. What does this mean for Bratton Fleming or the new station at Wistlandpound?

This is the capacity, not the number of journeys. Let's go back to the assumed load factor, which will not be 100%. Being generous, let's assume in high season every train is 70% full: 63,700 round-trips.

True, but if 70% load factor is right across the high season, you'd need the galas/events/santa to produce half of the total high season to get to 100,000 journeys, which seems extremely unlikely.