Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

I'm not convinced you do need more powerful locos if your normal trains are going to be 5 coaches - which is what fits the stations. OTOH, if you think you need bigger trains because otherwise the financials don't stack up - then you'd better start designing your stations to fit the trains you think you need. It would be silly to end up with a fleet of locos that can pull 9 coach trains through stations that can only cope with 5 ...

In other words, you have to think these things through holistically.

I'd also disagree with the notion of having locos of different classes / power types. There is a lot of advantage (in crew training and maintaining pools of spares) in having several similar locos in a fleet. There's a reason why the SR, when faced with the need for a new loco, just built another Manning Wardle, slightly updated. So I think essentially you need a loco that can cope with 5 coaches - I can't see what is wrong with Manning Wardles, in that regard ...

My personal view is that there is the opportunity at the L&BR to create something of a facsimile of a much-loved former railway, something that will be a USP. By contrast I find the Welsh Highland a bit meh: South African Garretts on modern carriages does nothing for me.

Tom

 

That comes with its own challenges though, which are obviously surmountable as they've managed to surmount them, but I've always wondered how you manage to write a roster when you don't know how many trains you'll be running until potentially quite close to the time. I tend to have our rosters out about 3-4 weeks before the first date featured in the roster, which is usually for a month. Obviously changes get made if people have to drop out or the odd operational change here and there, but a totally different kettle of fish when I suspect many pre-bookings won't come in until the week before (if most railways' experience of Covid running was much to go by).

 

I hope you're right. What concerns me is the economics, and where the balance lies between length and demand. I also want something that is truly "L&B" but, considering the WHR example, not if that means we end up with the viability of the original WHR!

 

This is a very good discussion, with lots of helpful points from @DaveE , @Jamessquared , @21B, @flying scotsman123 and @RailWest, showing that we have much to learn from other railways; and as @35B reminds us, we need to have a plan that it financially viable over the long term.

On all of this, I'd want to have the flexibility to run 7 or 8 coach trains easily (ie, not only as special event). @Jamessquared 's '60% feels full' metric feels right, and 8 coaches seating 320 will feel 'full' at around 200 passengers, and five or six departures averaging 200 passengers in high season gets us to about 1000 passengers a day, which will feel like millions in comparison to today.

@RailWest - how much change to existing planning would 8 coaches plus a loco require? I appreciate it would mean extending the existing platforms at Woody Bay and moving some signals and points, but how advanced is the planning for the other stations? And before someone jumps on me with 'well, that's not how it was in 1935', the short answer is that by the time we are ready to open a significant extension, anyone who can remember the line in operation will be well past 100! What matters is whether it is operationally workable and fiscally sustainable.

 

I've not really waded into the numbers discussion yet as I've not had much to add. Just on this though, even on high days and holidays, it instinctively feels unlikely to me that you'll get a "full" 200 for each round trip. Inevitably the first and last ones will be quieter.

Mention was made of needing 3 sets of coaches of X long a while back to give an hourly frequency. Not wholly convinced on that either. An hourly frequency is certainly desirable, but if the length of line gets to the point that you need 3 trains out to achieve it, I think the challenges start to outweigh the benefits, and a slide to 1.5 hours is acceptable. Not to say don't plan for it to ever happen, but I wouldn't be rushing to build that third set when there could be other more important things to spend that kind of money on. Not everything has to be in place if/when a great length of railway is opened, a third rake feels like it falls into that category for me, too many imponderables at this stage to be definitive.

 

Nothing to do with 1935 really, most of the stations cannot take 8 carriage rakes.
Each carriage is 40', plus loco at say 30' and then you need the space for points. 350' for the train and then 60' for each point? (wild guess) that's closing on 500' for the platform and points, all needing to be fairly level, I'm not even sure BG has that kind of space available.

In lengthening the platforms you also start to play with the gradients on entry and exit and also in between stations.

Woody Bay cannot be extended south much, once you hit the other side of the points you are on the 1 in 50, quite quickly too. The other way, maybe another carriage or two at a squeeze but then you are into the cutting where the shed is remembering you need points that end too.

4, maybe 5 maximum I would say for general service.

 

The L&B website (pre-2022) originally stated:

The only steam railway in the UK where on every journey, passengers travel in Victorian railway carriages designed in the 1890's

These unique historic carriages cannot be seen anywhere other than here in North Devon​

Okay, so you can see (but not touch) one at the NRM, but that was essentially accurate. In the haste to modernise and professionalise the website in May 2022, many changes were made, and this was one of them. I would suggest contacting The Chairman if you want it fixed. He will know who is in charge of the website now.

 

This years visitor flyer/pamphlet goes one better stating 'Welcome to the only steam railway in the UK where you will travel on the original coaches designed and built in the 1890s, These coaches are unique to the Lynton and Barnstaple Railway

 

Another thing I will pick up on here Toby is that the L&B is hugely written about and photographed. Although very soon there will be none left who remember the railway when it was originally open (our dear friend Ray Daniels passed away very recently at 96,and I know of only one other now from that era) with the extensive catalogue of records, photos, books and knowledge that has been generated, and especially from the "walking encyclopedias" of Mike Bishop, Keith Vingoe, Paul Gower, and many others who must forgive me for not mentioning, it's not easy to drift far from the authenticity and heritage without people noticing.

After all, that's the biggest draw we have, the uniqueness of the railway, it's authenticity, the history of the railway on Exmoor, and the hark back to a bygone age.

It very much can be viable, and fiscally sustainable, we only have to look at other places to see that's possible.

In my view we have been given the huge responsibility of taking care of and curating a very special piece of North Devon history which has the potential to become akin to places like Ironbridge or Morewellham Quay. Our eventual destination is hopefully Lynton, a town built largely in the Victorian age as a seaside resort in England's Little Switzerland.

If this railway is rebuilt as closely as possible to the original, and Lynton comes on board too along with Barnstaple, the whole lot could be seen as a World Heritage venue along with the story of the Exmoor Park, the Cliff Railway, etc.

We very much do not want to go too far into tin can stock, or a weird junk yard of other railways, completely diluting that special heritage we are looking after. The locals have already expressed their distaste for "Disneyfiction" and I think it would be a mistake too and a dishonour to the people of North Devon and their history.

To me it seems like some are trying to reinvent the wheel in looking for other "winning formulas". We already have that winning formula, it's not an easy one, but it's one that in the end I think will be someting rather special and be a huge draw if done very carefully and not get sidetracked into the modern.

Of course if later we find that the railway can also be used as a transport route for locals due to increases in car ownership costs etc, with sympathetic modern stock as people movers say two car sets all matching and neat looking and compliments and works in with the origins and authenticity, that's a bonus.

 

Again, I suspect railways as far apart as the Isle of Wight and Talyllyn might dispute that claim! The Isle of Wight Steam Railway makes a big thing that all it's passenger carrying stock was used on the Isle of Wight (now with one exception, but a carriage of the type that was used).

What they are really saying is "the Lynton and Barnstaple is the only place you can ride in Lynton and Barnstaple carriages" - and even that isn't true, I don't think. Don't the Ffestiniog have an original L&B carriage?

The L&B has plenty going for it without having to resort to hyperbolic marketing copy that is demonstrably untrue.

Tom

 

This is just another way the railway puts a spin on things, i doubt anyone would pick them up on it but it is misleading.
The fest does have a carriage from Snapper but it has been modified to suit their loading gauge so its a bit lower

 

It really does depend on your definition of "original". I would contend that the L&B coaches, lovely as they are, are replicas incorporating some parts from the 1890's originals.

There are "original" coaches elsewhere, but then the "Trigger's broom" argument comes up. Perhaps the most "original" of these is the TR's 1866 Brown Marshalls 4-wheeler No 1. This was the original all-first class vehicle and as such spent much of its life unused and under cover in the carriage shed due to lack of first class custom.
This is evident in that the doors are still hung with hinges on the right. The other two had the doors rehung on the left in the 1950's-60's due to the hinge screws pulling out of the frames. No 1's woodwork is substantially as-built, whereas the other two have had most of the panelling and large portions of the body framing replaced. They've all had modifications to keep them in regular traffic (although plans are in place for a well-earned semi-retirement) including hidden steel underframes and air brakes.

With the current state of play it seems that future L&B passenger stock requirements are but pipe dreams, but I reckon by far the best solution (after all the old L&B designs are replicated) would be visually modified versions of the FR's Super Saloons. As an existing design with only four inward opening doors in end vestibules there shouldn't be any acceptance problems and they would be far easier to maintain than an all-compartment vehicle. With exterior panelling to match the "originals" and SR green livery they would complement SR liveried locos quite well. We can but dream!

 

As regards WB, the starting assumption was the KL end of the layout was 'fixed', any extension of the loops/platforms would be done at the LN end. And yes, of course there is the 'small matter' of the shed and cutting, but we were looking really at the impact for Phase 2B once the shed had gone.
As regards the state of planning for the other stations - who knows? No-one tells us lowly members anything. In simple terms, given that none of them have actually been (re)built yet, then you 'simply' make the loops and platforms as long as you like - that in itself ought not to affect the signalling very much other than in terms of exactly where you put everything for sighting, clearance etc.
Quite what the impact would be at Chelfham in terms of its 'heritage restoration' is another matter......

 

It's an interesting vision, but I'm not sure it avoids the charge of being "Disneyfied". We are still talking about recreation of something that closed 87 years ago, building anew from very limited remains and having to make things align to today's requirements.

It then all comes back to whether pre-1935 length trains are going to be economically viable. If they are, then great, "original" L&B stock will apply (but beware arguments over "pastiche"). If not - then what?

 

Better get some green paint out for your coaches, then @DaveE ! (Or for Lyn, scrapping this "762" heretical paint job....)

Each heritage railway is unique, and has a story to tell. Each can be presented more or less authentically - I would suggest that TR (orginal locos, original carriages, full original route), Bluebell (remarkable stations from each era, matched trainsets from Mark 1s backwards to their Craven Train project) and IoWSR (original loco pulling original carriages on an original route) plus others - would (correctly) claim exactly the same thing. Authenticity is important, but it isn't unique.

It also has its limits - are you proposing to close OSHI to revert Blackmoor Gate to 1898, 1921 or 1935? Presumably not, if it succeeds as we all hope. Would you rebuild 762 to be a direct copy of the original to take away the improvements? Surely not. Similarly, we're not going to have the 1935 timetable as previously discussed, and I'd like a proper modern loo, not just an unroofed gents urinal, thank you!

It can be, but simply saying so doesn't make it so - the railway made an annual profit of £14 in a recent year, I seem to recall. This is precisely why this thinking is so important and why it needs doing before we start spending a lot (more) money on planning (let alone on the ground.)

Is anyone suggesting anything else, @DaveE ? The question is how best to do this - we're already making compromises on authenticity, as above - AND FOR GOOD REASONS!

Says who? As @talyllyn1 suggests, visually modified modern FR stock would be ideal for most visitors, especially over a 90 or 120 min trip. Your heritage coaches will always have an important role to play, but as a specific experience.

Spare me! Who is "dishonouring" anything? Does the FR / WHR "dishonour" the people of Eryri/Snowdonia because they modified Linda and Blanche into 2-4-0s? Is using Lyd "dishonouring" these mountain communities (if so, we can offer her a nice home). Forgive me, this is ridiculous. (And as for "Disneyfication", who are these locals? What are they complaining about specifically? How have we tried to engage them to understand their concerns?)

What works over 0.9 miles is not guaranteed to work over 15 or more miles, @DaveE. It is precisely to ensure the things that you care about that we need to discuss these questions and come up with the best answers informed by the evidence and lessons learned (frequently the hard way) elsewhere. There's sometimes value in not being first, so let's use that opportunity.

 

I am simply going to focus on this for now.
If you had followed the public meetings and comments you would know where the concerns about Disneyfication comes from and why.

Edit: Other than that I will reply properly later as quite busy at the moment

 

Tongue firmly in cheek... Can you think of anyone who might benefit from this one? 1:45 on the Wednesday.
Towards inclusive governance
Sara Wajid, Co-CEO, Birmingham Museums Trust, Jeannette Plummer Sires, Trustee Board Member, Council for British Archaeology and Esther Lisk-Carew, Trustee, Portico Library
Hear from our Museum Detox panellists how seeking out diverse voices, perspectives, and experiences in leadership positions will help foster innovation, creativity and the building of trust and legitimacy across your organisation and the broader community you serve.

 

Oddly enough, I did follow the public meetings and comments from a central objector about 'Disneyfication' - whatever that may be. (What ho, I see no mice!)

But the fundamental question about what the appropriate rolling stock is remains - and should be up for a broad, inclusive discussion - which has been notably missing under the current regime. What is critical is avoiding boxing ourselves in - the line is likely to be rather more successful than 1935 (when it, er, closed becuase it was losing money), and we need to be able to respond to modern customer needs.

 

Don't forget you have a high percentage of holidaymakers or visitors in you passenger make up so you might like to add in variable factors like visitors change over day (Friday or Mondays seem more popular than Saturdays somehow) when visitors will be busy doing other things. Then you will get 'Beach Days'. Warm, sunny, light breezes and families flock to the beaches not the attractions. Of course, opposite to that are the 'lets do something else' days when maybe it's overcast or drizzly and there is a bit of wind to blow the sand about and make real sandwiches. Quite often these can be the busy days. Well that's what it's like in South Wales anyway.