Gresley Society’s GNR N2 1744

The North Norfolk Railway has reached an agreement with The Gresley Society that secures the long term future of Gresley N2 No. 1744.

The agreement should see the locomotive running again in 2025 following its overhaul.

1744 last ran in 2018 when it was withdrawn for a heavy overhaul, which was expected to take no more than 3 years.

However, the overhaul was hit by the COVID-19 pandemic and increased costs, so although hoped to be completed in 2024, the cost was too great.


Under the agreement, Northern Steam Engineering will complete the work on the boiler, before the locomotive moves to Weybourne’s Workshop for the rest of the work to be completed.

The railway has agreed to cover the cost of the work, with the amount being repaid through the operation of the locomotive.


It is expected that 1744 should return to service on the North Norfolk Railway during Spring 2025.

 

Interesting that the mainline ambitions haven't been mentioned either way.

 

Can it/will it be able to run in condensing mode?

 

It never did during its many years at the GCR. I was told once that various parts were missing. Don't know any more than that though.

 

It’s probably sacrilege to say I think it would look better without the condensing pipes.

 

Just out of interest I asked chat GPT to compare and contrast the N2 vs N7 locomotives. I don't know how correct this is but it is convincing

The **N2** and **N7 locomotives** were both classes of British steam locomotives designed for mixed-traffic use, primarily on suburban and branch-line passenger services. While they share some similarities, there are distinct differences between the two in terms of design, operational performance, and intended use. Here's a detailed comparison and contrast:
### 1. **Design and Origin:**
- **N2 Locomotives**:
- **Designer**: Sir Nigel Gresley, a renowned engineer for the Great Northern Railway (GNR).
- **Introduced**: 1920.
- **Type**: 0-6-2T (tank engine).
- **Primary Use**: Designed for suburban passenger services, particularly for congested routes with frequent stops, like those around London.
- **Number Built**: 107 locomotives.
- **Key Design Features**: The N2 featured Gresley's superheater and a relatively large boiler, contributing to its robust performance in stop-and-start suburban environments. The 0-6-2T wheel arrangement helped with stability and handling curves.

- **N7 Locomotives**:
- **Designer**: Originally designed by Alfred John Hill for the GER (Great Eastern Railway) and later modified by the London and North Eastern Railway (LNER).
- **Introduced**: 1915 (GER), with later modifications under LNER in the 1920s.
- **Type**: 0-6-2T (tank engine).
- **Primary Use**: Similar to the N2, the N7 was designed for suburban and branch line passenger services, focusing on routes in East London and East Anglia.
- **Number Built**: 134 locomotives.
- **Key Design Features**: The N7 featured a slightly smaller boiler than the N2, and its design was focused on simplicity and efficiency for the GER's suburban networks. The design was compact but sturdy, suited to handling frequent stops on short routes.
### 2. **Performance:**
- **N2 Locomotives**:
- Known for their excellent acceleration, N2s were well-suited for routes with many stops.
- The large boiler and superheater made them powerful for their size, providing enough steam for quick starts and stops in congested rail networks.
- They had good hauling power for suburban trains but were also sometimes used for light freight.
- Their design emphasized quick steam-raising capability, which was ideal for suburban routes where efficiency was crucial.

- **N7 Locomotives**:
- The N7s were simpler in design compared to the N2s but were praised for their reliability and consistent performance on less demanding branch and suburban lines.
- They performed well on East Anglian routes and were particularly favored for their ability to negotiate tighter curves due to their shorter wheelbase compared to the N2.
- They lacked some of the power of the N2, especially over longer distances, but their compact design made them excellent for branch lines and tight station approaches.

### 3. **Usage:**
- **N2 Locomotives**:
- Primarily operated in the London suburban network, particularly on the GNR lines and later the LNER network.
- After nationalization, many were absorbed into British Railways and continued suburban service until diesel and electric trains replaced them in the 1950s and 1960s.
- Their size and power made them better suited for routes requiring frequent stops and higher acceleration demands.
- **N7 Locomotives**:
- Operated primarily on the Great Eastern Railway's suburban and branch-line routes, particularly in East London and parts of East Anglia.
- They continued in service after the grouping (becoming part of the LNER) and post-nationalization under British Railways.
- N7s were particularly valued for their ability to handle more rural routes with tighter curves and fewer demands for acceleration compared to the N2s.
### 4. **Legacy and Preservation:**
- **N2 Locomotives**:
- A single N2 locomotive, No. 1744, has been preserved and remains operational on heritage railways in the UK. This locomotive is a representative of the class and can often be seen in steam on preserved lines.

- **N7 Locomotives**:
- One N7 locomotive, No. 69621, has also been preserved and operates on heritage railways. Like the N2, this locomotive offers a glimpse into the era of steam suburban services.
### 5. **Operational Differences:**
- **Power and Capability**: The N2 was generally considered more powerful than the N7, partly due to its larger boiler and superheater. It was better suited to routes that required a bit more hauling power, particularly in areas with frequent stops. The N7, while reliable, was more limited in power and was best suited to shorter routes and less demanding lines.
- **Geographical Focus**: The N2s were heavily used around London, while the N7s were more associated with the East of England, particularly East Anglia. This geographical distinction influenced their operational roles and the types of services they were most often employed on.
### Conclusion:
The **N2** and **N7 locomotives** both served suburban passenger routes but had distinct design philosophies and operational strengths. The **N2** was more powerful, designed for heavier suburban services with frequent stops, and found around London's busy suburban network. The **N7**, on the other hand, was a more modest locomotive, excelling on less demanding routes, particularly in East Anglia, and was favored for its simplicity and reliability. Both types have a legacy in British steam history, with examples preserved for heritage use today.

 

Surprised there is no real mention of the N7 use on the Jazz service ex Liverpool Street, the most intensively worked steam suburban service in the world which is the very purpose the N7 was designed for.

 

Hatfield shed (34C) had both N2s and N7s. The N2s pretty well exclusively used south of there for the Kings + inner suburban services and for few local freight trains too. The N7s tended to work North and West of Hatfield on the St. Albans, Luton/Dunstable and Hertford branches for both passenger and freight services up to the time of the closure of these branches. Occasionally they did work to Kings +, but not normally in the peak hours, although I do recall such a working around 1956 with a Hatfield departure time of around 7.30 in the morning with a workman's train.

 

ChatGPT - like all this so-called "AI" guff - only knows what it can scrape from the Internet.

 

Very true, guess I shouldn't really have been surprised at the omission.

 

And if you then publish the results to the internet - more content to scrape!

What could possibly go wrong?

Tom

 

Answers on a real postcard, please

I'm reminded of someone who once said to me "why do you bother with all those 78s, LPs, CDs and tapes? I just stream, no clutter in the house."

To which my reply was "if you can tell me where I can stream the recordings I made of trains on the ECML before it got CWR, or the recording I made of various, somewhat drunken family members reminiscing at my parents' silver wedding anniversary party in 1977, please tell me."

 

Prions.

 

Habsburg AI is, I believe, the term in current use.

 

Thread Drift Alert -

If you've never watched Tom Scott on Youtube, he published weekly videos on all sorts of topics...form railways, to runways, to rabbits. Clever guy.

He did one on AI last year... and while the N2/N7 AI pull is not great, he explains why things like Chat GPT (in the future) will change everything.

 

I'm particularly bothered about 'AI' imagery. How will we be able to tell the real from the fake? I just see The Forbin Project becoming real - never mind the planetary destruction that the ever-growing power consumption of this stuff will bring.

Forty years in technology has taught me to have a healthy contempt of it - but also, of those who are in thrall to it.

Now - back to the N2 (what was the GNR classification for them, BTW?).

 

I believe the GNR classed them as N2 as well

 

Of course it does. But it provides a very accesible summary of what it scrapes. I was interested primarily because I read that LNER kept producing both classes and I wondered why. I did know about the Jazz services, which relied on good acceleration (an attribute ascribed to the N2 over the N7 by the chat GPT summary) and the tractive effort seemed similar on paper and in fact the N7s had 2x quintarts as opposed to 2 x quads behind the N2s, so I was a bit perplexed but would I be right in thinking that the N2 could cope better with longer suburban routes, whereas the N7 could do a few sprints but ran out of steam if the route demanded too many of them in quick succession? - but it was a simpler machine and therefore cheaper to build and run.

Just as an aside, I think the B12 and the N2 storming up Kelling bank at a gala about 5? years ago was one of my favourite runs ever. Sounded superb

 

Re ChatGPT I heard on Radio 4 that an enquiry to it uses ten times the electricity of an internet query, which is why massive data centres are being built that use huge amounts of energy, not so green…

 

I think you need to start a campaign to build a replica R1. Apparently not that successful, but they look like an N2 on steroids and would be authentic with or without condensing gear. Oh, and not suitable for BR livery affectionados either (all withdrawn by 1934), which is a bonus. ;-)
LNER Encyclopedia: The Ivatt R1 0-8-2 Tank Locomotives