West Somerset Railway General Discussion

I disagree. If somebody has the professional know-how to support their opinions on a specialised subject under discussion in the public media, then I want to know and will take this into account when evaluating the matter. This is not the same as Jo Blow signing off with his B.A. and BEM when complaining about dog-walkers or litter-louts.

 

I didn’t say that, did I?

The WSR has obviously decided on a minimal/practically non existent PR policy.

Unless a majority of the WSR shareholders force some kind of change at an AGM/EGM then the policy will continue, regardless of how many people think it is inappropriate.

There is absolutely no point in ranting about this policy on Nat-Pres as it will not achieve anything.

 

At least Mr Evans isn’t proposing to visit me with pick axe handles and balaclavas but it was a pretty clear example of playing the (wo)man rather than the ball. I leave others to judge the motivation for that.

I am entitled to use 43 post-nominal letters in total, relating to three separate fields of endeavour, but the 10 referencing my Membership of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport and (founding) Membership of the Chartered Institute of Railway Operators (both Memberships awarded by experience assessment) did seem relevant.

Incidentally, I am a member of the CIRO South Wales and West Committee and we will be shortly announcing our 2025 programme of events and lectures.

I’ll be sure to post it here. Mr Evans will be welcome. Membership of the CIRO is something which heritage railway operators might value. The entry grade is Associate Membership and is open to all.

 

Local Somerset journalists tell me that the WSR have told them that if they carry any stories adverse to the WSR plc they will be taken off the list for WSR plc press releases and at least one local and one national publication have been so blacklisted.

The policy appears to be ‘you must carry our propaganda or we won’t talk to you’.

It is extraordinary behaviour but then nothing much shocks from the current regime.

Returning to Taunton signalling, I was unaware that resignalling was in any way in prospect. Has that been announced somewhere?

 

If Taunton is up for re signalling, then it makes sense to see if the route into the former bay platform can be protected at least, with a view to separating traffic bound for the WSR from the main line, but at the moment with an uncertain financial outlook for everyone in the rail industry, anything, other than that has to be viewed as risky, If Wareham was deemed as not viable with everything in place, then how can a link between Taunton and BL the only way it could possibly work would be if there is no financial impact on the WSR, but there has to be some impact if you're having to operate connecting services unless you're going to change the existing timetable to allow a connection, but then that has to impact platform availability and running round.

 

We've been through this repeatedly. You can't use novelty gala operations as a barometer for daily passenger services.

Try visiting a mainline connected preserved railway on a normal running day and see how many passengers transfer between the two. East Grinstead doesn't have any public parking nearby for the Bluebell, yet passenger figures from there are very low. I've been to the Mid Hants on a mid-July day and I've been the only person to cross the bridge off a SWR service to P3. And those are places with direct services from London! Further afield, look how many passengers the SVR attracts by service train at Kidderminster. In the grand scheme of things, not many. The car park is busy though.

WSR doesn't attract the traffic needed for daily passenger services from Taunton. The bus runs from pretty much platform to platform and doesn't see a huge number of WSR passengers on normal days. It runs more frequently than a train service ever could and a lot cheaper, or free for many passengers.

Look at it going the other way - unless you live in BL, you'd need to drive to the station. Why would you add another leg into your journey? If you live near the bus route, you'll get the bus straight to Taunton station. If not, you might as well drive to Taunton station rather than drive to BL and hang around for a train. It'll be an hourly service, so you've got to allow time at Taunton for any delays on whatever other service you've arrived on. Say 15 minutes connection then 15 minutes on the train. If you've parked at Taunton station you'll be home before the other service has even got to BL! If you're coming from say Bristol and your service is cancelled, there might be another one 15 minutes later but you've missed your connection to BL so straight away you're home an hour later.

If you're commuting by train from Taunton, chances are you'll be going to Bristol. What time would the first train need to be out of BL to get someone to Bristol for a 9-5 job? 7.15 maybe so they're in Bristol for 8.30? Last one back, say 6pm from Taunton. Or do you add an extra one afterwards? If you do that, then the box at BL will need to be open from 7am to 8pm - you can't do more than 12 hours so instantly that's two shifts required. Or do you keep it within one shift and make the service unappealing for commuters? You'll need paid staff, who's going to volunteer for a 12 hour shift in the middle of winter to man the box for an hourly service?

No one is going to use a BL - Taunton service to go into Taunton to go shopping; the station is too far from the town centre and again, the buses run door to door.

A connecting service to BL might make sense to a solo spotter visiting a couple of times a year for a gala, but if you've got a family, you're going to drive. Why spend £100+ for train tickets and parking when you can spend £30 on petrol for the same journey and have a lot less stress and worry? Yes, for example you can do Bristol to BL in an hour by train and bus, quicker than the equivalent car journey, but generally people don't live right next to a station.

Just because the track is there it doesn't mean it must be used for a daily service! Especially not when there's a more useful, far cheaper and more frequent bus service running parallel.

 

Well, if the local "journalists" ( if the state of local journalism is similar to my locality I use the term with caution) kowtow to that sort of pressure they need to be in a different job. That threat in itself would be a good story.

A BL ( or anywhere else on the WSR) to Taunton link isn't really worth discussing unless your knowledge of rail transport and costs is limited to a Hornby train set! All that's needed by the consultants is two phone calls, one to Dorset Council the other to the Swanage Railway. That should keep the fees down to a reasonable twenty thousand or so.

 

If there is £137k on offer for writing the business case (for or against), I'll do it for £135k and use one side of an A4 sheet which includes calculating the reduction in revenue that will go to the bus service. It seems that the way to keep the masses on side is to promise all sorts of fanciful plans that make no commercial sense. It becomes worrisome when the management start to genuinely believe in them too. I don't know if that point has been reached but we seem well on the way.

IIRC, the WSRA charges (or charged) a conductor / driver fee for the ballast trains which is quite lucrative. Would one also be required for an intermittent passenger service ?

 

It would appear that the two publications cited by Robin refused to kowtow.

 

What was 'successful' about the 2019 trains? On the Bristol - Minehead trains run occasionally through the day (far less than hourly), staff often outnumbered passengers.

You are right that experience points to one thing. Occasional main line charters to the WSR and the use of Bishops Lydeard as an occasional base for main line steam locos (both as marginal activities) are viable and do not interfere with the heritage operation.

Those who dream of a reinstated daily / hourly service to Bishops Lydeard or further simply don't live in the real world.

And before it gets lost, can I ask again where the suggestion of imminent resignalling at Taunton has come from?

 

I have read the various opinions wrt whether a commercial service can be operated
on the WSR. I admit to being a sceptic.

I agree the existing No.28 bus service twixt Taunton and Minehead ( originally a
replacement bus service when BR closed the TN-MD route. It’s survival, unlike
most replacement bus services of the 60s and 70s, perhaps suggesting the WSR
should not have been closed by BR ) mitigates against restoring a commercial
service between BL and MD. The cost of totally upgrading the route, without
which it is slower than the bus, let alone the likely demise of the Preservation
operation appears to be unrealistic.

However the running of occasional through specials to Minehead from the
network IMHO should be encouraged and extended, it affords for the WSR
a potential growth area.

Regarding a commercial service Taunton to Bishops Lydeard :

If Taunton is to be re signalled and this could include Norton Fitzwarren
to Bishops Lydeard with direct access to the BL bay that would be a
very big step.

Governments ( and the rail lobby ) love ‘ new railways “ eg The Borders,
Okehampton and Ashington. The first two AFAIK have outperformed
original PAX predictions,

So what is the market for a service to BL ( assuming direct axis to the
BL bay and therefore not effecting WSR Heritage services ) with an
adequate car park i.e. additional to the existing WSR park, thereby
serving much of West Somerest and avoiding driving info Taunton Station.

The £137K could be used to answer the question ?

A final thought: Goverments ( in Taunton and especially Westminster )
like opening new Railway lines. Compared to Okehampton, Ashington
and certainly the Borders, this one would appear cheap..

My view let’s hope the £137K is forthcoming. Let’s hope it is used
to produce a realistic market assessment and then a decision can
be made. ( Not based on the 2019 DMU trial, or the 2007 Butlins
Express or other pre set ideas. )

Michael Rowe

 

Many have commented and @Jamessquared I think covered most of the issues very well.
Where are these trains supposed to serve as as far as I can see there are about 4 early morning originators from Taunton, Severn Beach, two to Paddington and a Cardiff. An hourly service throughout the day is at the expense of what? or are these supposed to be extra services? If it is pitched at commuters, (why have a park and ride if not) then we are looking at a 05:30 to 23:00 service window?

I see @Maunsell907 talks about the use of the BL bay but would that be guaranteed? The Wareham service was always supposed to use the down platform, but I saw it numerous times in the up. What happens if the bay is out of use, do not operate? as I do not see BL meeting the NR (and I assume ORR) standards for a modern station. Would it end up needing a large bridge with lifts, I am sure the ORR would want the use of the barrow crossing gone, otherwise why spend all that money at Horton in Ribblesdale for example.

Not sure governments do like new railways, at least the Westminster one. Great photo op when they open but that is about all I can see. If they were fans then why was one of the first things the new lot did was cancel all the community rail projects. Southampton is not exactly traffic free yet the Fawley Branch upgrade went straight away. (Even though some new OAO now wants to go to Marchwood).

So at the end of the day all the money will have to come from somewhere that we are continually told has none. Councils that are or close to bankruptcy (and seem to be subject to serious Westminster "dabbling" at the moment). Nt sure it would be popular for a council to support this at say the cost of some of the social care budget.
Starmer and Reeves keep telling us there is no money for anything due to the "black hole". NR, the TOC's (I assume really GBR) is all funded from Westminster, who surprisingly are still subsidising bus fares, so why subsidise something else. Why would the government use any money on this when the existing services need so much money to sort out the 7 day a week working issue.

 

As someone who, whatever his views of the current management, wishes the WSR well, I would like to see benefit here. However, given the many previous discussions about the difficulties of blending heritage and "national" operations, the limited transfers witnessed at interchanges, and the sub-optimal experiences where heritage railways have tried to overlay on the national network (SDR, NYMR, Swanage to name the 3 highest profile), I'm really rather sceptical as to what £137k of business case expenditure will buy.

Mention has already been made of the 28 bus. When I look at the Okehampton or Ashington reopenings, I observe that these offer significant railheading possibilities & a quality of service that the alternatives cannot match. As importantly, the equivalent extension from Taunton would be to Minehead, not Bishops Lydeard. Therefore, as a taxpayer, this seems a rather expensive set of hammer & nails with which to close this particular zombie idea's coffin given that there are no current plans to resignal or remodel Taunton.

 

Thankyou to Gladiator and 35B for their responses.

I think Gladiator a service to the Bay at Bishops Lydeard does not, with the appropriate
track changes, effect the daily WSR (actually c 165 days per year ) services although the
location of the BL MPD is obviously a complication. Perhaps rather than the Swanage,
NYMR analogies the Mid Hants serves better.

The transfer from Main Line to WSR would be cross platform but yes I agree that
significant work at BL station would be required.

New governments invariably cancel many existing schemes, eg Fawley ( NIVH ) and
then find other projects later that “ offer significantly better value “. Please excuse
my pragmatic realism/cynicism.

35B: of course TN to MD equates to Exeter to Okehampton or Newcastle to Ashington
but the shortness of TN to BL offers the prospect of less capital outlay ( a similar ROCE
to the previous mentioned schemes or even better ? ).

Okehampton has a population of c 6K, BL 3K , there is hinterland in both cases that
could use a BL type parkway station. ( Okehampton is now building a new parkway
station )

I think with £137K , a targeted market survey plus known existing SCC population
growth figures, Taunton overspill etc, it should be possible to produce figures that
say a “possibility” or a “dead duck”

What’s in it for the WSR ? Some added revenue perhaps, an uplift of BL station
possibly in the short term. Long term possibly a raison d’etre, when many of us are
in signal boxes in the sky.

A final thought, if Go-Op fulfils it’s Taunton to Swindon intent does this
influence. Pressure on Car Parking at TN station etc

Michael Rowe

 

I have my doubts about whether Go-Op will ever get off the ground - the fact that they are running a crowdfunding campaign itself does nothing to inspire confidence in their future. Okehampton's advantage in this context is it's position by the A30 - BL is poorly placed by comparison, and with a much smaller hinterland.

 

>>>Okehampton is now building a new parkway station...

Which apparently, for some obscure reason, is not going to be called '...Parkway' but '....Interchange'. Seems rather a posh word for those who will simply get out of the train to get on a bus or into their car. I'm sure the 'average rail user' has a reasonable idea what to expect at a 'Parkway' station, so why 'invent' another term?

 

I understand the 28 was not a replacement bus service but had been running for some years before the trains were withdrawn as it served the villages better.

 

Interchange means that both rail and bus services serve that point and thus a passenger can change from one mode to the other. For example Bournemouth Travel Interchange which dates from the 1980s IIRC.

Parkway means a railway station built as a railway station for motorists the name being an amalgamation of the words car park and railway station.

Both these terms have been around for quite a while certainly Parkway since the late 1960s as New Pudsey is mentioned as a parkway in the BTF Film Rail Report 8 The New Tradition (1968).

 

From the S&DTrust’s social media:


Settlement Agreement between the S&DRT and WSR.

Many of you may have seen news pieces in the railway press recently regarding our negotiations to secure the future of our 7F 53808. I did allude in my message a few weeks ago that we were coming towards a final agreement and I am pleased to say that a settlement has been signed now which not only releases the S&DRT from all previous agreements with the West Somerset Railway as to the maintenance and overhaul of 53808, but also firmly establishes a payment plan to reimburse us for past financial commitments totalling £210,000. This will be repaid to us over a five-year period.

This settlement paves the way now for us to begin the process of overhaul which will likely begin in March 2025 with the tender going into the works at Ropley for stripping down and major repairs. That will be closely followed by the lifting of the boiler from the main frames for assessment, to be followed with plans for its repair.

It is the beginning of an exciting period for the Trust and we sincerely hope that members will continue to support the Trust over the coming months so that we can complete 53808's overhaul on a good timescale so that we can see and enjoy the locomotive once more.

Very best wishes for Christmas and the New Year from all the trustees.

Roger Hardingham
Chairman

Note: the hire agreement for 53808 with the WSR was suspended in 2020 with 53808 moving to the Watercress Line in that August and operating for the next three years from Ropley on a steaming fee basis. Those fees are also available for the overhaul work.


Comment:

It is to be hoped, for the S&DRT’s sake, that an organisation already losing £8,000 a week will be able to honour a further £210,000.

And all because of the arrogance of one individual.