North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

I suggest that it's not just the NYMR that has concluded that the days have gone of generating a surplus from the farebox and secondary spend that's enough to make many heritage railways financially sustainable. They are unlikely to return. Grants are not the answer event though they help with some challenges such as bridge replacement. For most it's likely to require a combination of cost cutting and developing new or higher margin business opportunities. The main challenge with the former is how to avoid it restricting operations particularly in ways that reduce the level of interest for volunteers.

 

I think we need to be specific about financial sustainability in the past. In the early days (let’s arbitrarily say until the mid-2000s) railways were able to cover the cost of operating out of the fare box. Generally they did not have to cover major infrastructure works (unless extending) using the life left in the assets. This was also true of rolling stock and to certain extent locomotives. Some generated a small surplus in this basis, which was reinvested usually in additional assets of one form or another. We can probably count on the fingers of one hand the number that were actually sustainable in the sense that they were creating enough surplus to meet all depreciating assets costs fully. None of us noticed (or only a few did) because there was a reasonably steady stream of donations and grants available, and the twin challenges of serious inflation and decreased voluntary labour were not yet being felt.

 

Neither what you or @Lineisclear have said is untrue, and in reality you are both saying the same thing.
But it would appear that the NYMR understandingly, as it is a long line meaning much infrastructure and loco needs, like nearly all other Heritage Lines needs to find ways to balance the books. If that means moving away from the initial HR model of the 20th century then it needs to be that or drift slowly, or quickly, into a financial abyss. Like everything else in business at the end of the day it is all about the money.

 

Not sure if we are saying the same thing. I think it matters whether we think railways were previously sustainable at least in terms of how big we view the current challenges and what we think they really are. Also, it isn’t all about the money. It’s all about people. People buy tickets (or don’t), people donate, people volunteer. The competition looming is for hearts and minds!

 

Whilst people have an impact as you say I stick with the money point because, no ticket purchase, no donations, no or less volunteers means more paid staff or less services.
We may just have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

Who sells the tickets? Who makes the donations? People. You have to get the people part right. The money comes as a result. You cannot simply cut your costs to success. It will be part of the solution to control costs of course, but it’s pointless unless you persuade PEOPLE to buy tickets, make donations and volunteer.

 

The points mentionedare, in general, true, but I do not accept that the conclusions that their author drew from them are. Less cash coming in should never be a corolly for more paid staff, that's just a route to accelerating the decline, and I can't see how anyone could advocate more paid staff on the basis of falling visitor numbers - quite the reverse in fact! The extension to Whitby was supposed to bring more cash in, but actually it seems to have accelerated the loss making, whilst the numbers of staff have inreased, partly in response to the increased regulatory requirements of running on NR. I think the Swanage Railway narrowly avoided a similar trap that would have brought negligible value had it happened.

It has been suggested on here that the "sensible" response at the NYMR would be to reduce the services operated to the two services to Whitby in the morning and the two corresponding return services in the evening. That, to my mind, would be the ultimate acceptance of defeat. What is really needed, and I make no apologies for harping on about it, is to make the railway itself an attractive place to visit and explore, and that actually means enhancing and making more of its heriatage railway credentials. IMHO that really means doing a lot more to make it more of a living museum, with a wider appeal than just as a railway, focusing more on the railway's place in its environment, so it appears to a wider cross-section of visitors. It is essential to start rebuilding and enhancing those services that do not run through to Whitby, and that is where bI see the present Management failing abjectly.

 

The idea of your headgear in any position here being a feather headdress, and neither a uniform cap nor a protective helmet, is - cheerful!

 

Do you live in a teepee though?

 

Only in the summer!

 

"White man speak with fork tongue"...

 

The issue here is that the role of ‘Project Manager’ for example is one that is universally recognised across sectors. People can do qualifications in Project Management. In my job on the big railway, we have project managers in engineering, IT, Property etc It’s also the type of role where someone can move between sectors quite easily as the fundamentals are the same.

When the NYMR (or any other organisation) advertises for someone to manage a project they’re running, they want to attract the best person for the job within their budget, so they need to use job titles which, where possible, are as familiar and universal as possible.

If I was a project manager looking for a new job, I would be searching recruitment websites etc for Project Manager, not Project Leader.

So, if the NYMR were to change the name of the role to avoid looking top heavy, They could potentially miss out on a camera that was a great fit because that person doesn’t Identify that role as being what they are looking for.

 

I was thinking of Projexct Leaders being the technical leaders (or in 1950s terms for Gladiator 5706) "Foremen"!

 

I see that the NYMR has published its Events Calendar for 2025
https://www.nymr.co.uk/Listing/Category/whats-on
15 - 23 February: Half-Term Fun with North Eastern Railway Petrol-Electric Autocar No. 3170
22 - 30 March: Visiting Engine No. 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley
31 March: Main 2025 Season Opening
31 March: Railway 200 Spring Trail Starts
5 - 13 April: Visiting Engine No. 45596 Bahamas (on standard services)
5 - 21 April: Easter Fun including 200 Mile Challenge
12 - 15 June: Annual Diesel Gala
22 July - 31 August: Summer Holiday Fun 
12 - 21 September: Heritage Open Days
25 - 28 September: Annual Steam Gala  
25 October - 2 November: Ghost Train & Ghost Stories
29, 30 November, 6, 7, 13, 14 & 20 - 24 December: Santa Specials

 

That list is all very well, but I don't see very much to bring in large crowds on it - and that's what is needed.

 

Bit harsh on events such as the Diesel/Steam Gala when you don't know what the guest locos are yet?!

 

I wasn't really referring to the two Galas, it was the rest of the programme that I found lacking. The Autocar, 60007 and 45596 events will bring in some, but I don't see them as major events - did the visit of 46100, for example, have a major effect? We really need some sell-out events like the former wartime weekend, with adjustments made to make it more safely manageable and profitable - and we're told that the Dining services are profitable, so why not some extra-premium value-added events based around them?

 

I see your point... Every railway will tell you that you need things to attract the non-enthusiasts and I don't see much of that. 'Half term fun' 'Summer fun' isn't particularly informative but the description for Feb half term suggests that the fun is just a shuttle service in the NER Autocar

 

Well.
Firstly for non-enthusiassts, they could do worse than the saloon in the "electric autocar". It is rather airy, no way feels cramped, distinctly better than a Modernisation Plan DMU for the view outside and the reversible seats are fun!

Secondly, and personally as an enthusiast enticed from The Great Wen to visit and hoping for a fully laden restart to test the specification for which it was powered - to start anywhere on the North Yorks. Moors Rwly. with the trailer. I presume this should happen wherever a train is most likely to stick. Where should I expect this? What mile post, bridge or other landmark?

(The occasion I take as a gracious tribute to the N. Yorks. Moors for enabling the full restoration by providing the coach for the trailer.)

 

We'll have to wait and see how the Autocar and coach do in practice, but I suggest the February is really the worst time of year to be finding out! Dirty and damp rails in the cutting at Beck Hole will probably prove to be a good test. As for the views, those sitting in the Autocar will no doubt enjoy them, but those in the bon-corridor trailer will probably be less impressed. Enthusiasts probably will, "laymen" less so.