North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Pickering and Goathland are reasonable destinations for people staying in Whitby. We’ve already said that booking office staff say that there is a significant demand for single tickets from people who want to return by bus but these aren’t available. In times gone by events were often put on at Levisham to encourage visitors but that has been killed off by getting rid of the volunteers who were the lifeblood of the place. Grosmont has little to interest Joe Public. There was once a plan to build a railway museum there but that has died a death. Whether the railway can change that, I’m not sure. It would need someone with the drive and detector do so and I don’t think that exists.

 

I think there is a danger of over egging the value of added attractions. For most, a journey through the Moors behind a steam train is the attraction. With my two young children, a trip from Pickering to Grosmont with a break there, walk through the tunnel to the sheds and then return by steam train is ample entertainment. There's a tea room on the platform, pub by the station - what more do people need?!

Whitby is somewhere I would visit separately rather than try and combine with a train journey which makes it quite a lengthy day out.

 

I don't know if you can say that the attraction for 'most' is a journey through the Moors behind a steam train - only that for some, that is enough, but for others, they would prefer a day that doesn't completely revolve around the railway. Thinking of my family when I was growing up - I would have been very happy spending the entire day riding the trains, not so my parents or brother. Therefore something like getting off at Goathland and then a walk to Malyan Spout, or back down the Rail Trail to Grosmont, or getting off at Newton dale and walking to Lewisham, was a good compromise - Jeremy gets his train ride but it includes some walking which my parents enjoyed more. Similarly, while some people will take your attitude of 'if I'm going to Whitby, I'll just go there rather than throw 23 miles of steam train either side', others will see the steam train as a nice way to get to Whitby and the long day won't put them off too much.

Railways need to be careful of doing too much generalising or pigeonholing of what the public want as justification for focussing or limiting the options they offer. Of course, a railway might be able to say "95% of our customers do this specific type of trip so we are focussing our operations around this". But then you have the questions - are 95% of people choosing this option because it is the most attractive, or because the railway's operations limit their options to this type of trip? And also, are there other external factors beyond the railway's control that could affect what the public wants to do? Whether that's something like cost / family finances, or something else opening that you could spend part of the day at and then part of the day at the railway - are the railway's operations so focussed that such flexibility is not practical, or even obvious as an option, and so puts off potential customers?

 

All the foregoing replies rather prove my point, I think! The NYMR attracts a cross-section of the public, with each of them having different targets for what they want to see, do or hear! It isn't feasible to try to meet all of their requirements but trying to offer a wider cross section wouldn't hurt! The NYMR is already operating outside its original purpose of existing to provide transport for passengers and goods between Pickering and Whitby and points in between. It is now in the tourism, education and and entertainment business and needs to embrace the latter two as being more important to its well being than has been the case. It's simply a question of giving the public what they want. There has been a lot of talk of Beamish, and I've added Crich to that; they have recognised the need for a variety of attractions to broaden their appeal.

 

I don't think the NYMR will ever be a Beamish or a Crich, whether it wants to or not. Yes, you can go for a ride on a train or tram there but the essence of these places is that you can wander around and look at things and immerse yourself in a bygone age. Where on the NYMR would you be able to do that, other than by riding on the train? It is far too linear and too long. It would also mean an increase in paid staff as actors and explainers and we all know what that would mean. I don't know where this idea of becoming another Beamish has come from but it was certainly in the sights of senior management a while ago with fact-finding visits to the place. The essence of the NYMR right from day one has been to provide a transport service and it's actually quite good at that when it has the resources to do so. Why try and change it? Let's accept that taking people to Whitby, Grosmont, Goathland, Levisham and Pickering for whatever reason is what its all about and make that an interesting and informative day out. To do that, we need to move away from the 100% Mk.1 philosophy and make the journey that trip back to yesteryear with different sets of trains. I see the LNER teak train as being a jewel in the railway's crown that should be in daily use and used to maximum capacity. I'm told that the teaks can't go to Whitby but I don't know exactly why. It was certainly talked about in the early days of running to Whitby. Whatever it is, have we applied for a derogation or has it simply been filed under 'too difficult'? There should also be a local train consisting of non-corridor stock and the older, the better. That can ply twixt Grosmont and Goathland quite easily without impacting on the core services. As a side advantage, its ideal for the smaller locos.

Yes, we can do a bit to make our stations more interesting but that doesn't want to be hugely high up the agenda. Whatever it is, it doesn't want to have to rely on explainers and actors unless they are volunteers so they should be additional to the experience and not fundamental to it.

 

I'm not suggesting the the NYMR should try to become a clone of either Beamish or Crich - but it really needs to develop its own identity, or USP. What I do believe is that it can - and should - do something to broaden its appeal and encourage people to make use of the railway, as you suggest, and I firmly believe that a partnership with the Beck Isle Museum would be a great start, perhaps with the Fairground Museum at Scarborough too. I'm particularly in favour of making use of vintage rolling stock and smaller engines _ perhaps we could attract the G5 that way or persuade the NER Autocar to make the NYMR its home base! Perhaps, even, we could see premium dining trains using vintage coaches! I haven't suggested adding casts of entertainers/explainers either - what I have suggested is providing a "canvas" for local people to start small businesses in a craft centre where they can "perform" in public and sell their wares. It wouldn't cost a lot to set up and would add a lot in terms of potential experiences. What is really needed, though, is a CEO, a commercial manager and a grants coordinator with vision and enthusiasm to start the ball rolling and keep it moving forward, and there seems to be no evidence of either being in place at the moment.

 

At the AGM the CEO seemed surprised the revived diesel gala had made a profit of £90,000. Four other similar events would significantly reduce the losses.


I think £49.50 for one day is very expensive and difficult to sell after giving away a year's free travel in 2024. Would a three-day ticket for the same price be a better sell?

I'd be interested to know how successful the new Santa Special arrangements were in comparison to previous years. Did the new format boost revenue?
What were the passenger numbers in the 2024 normal season?

 

A month after the Santa season came to an end, there appears to be silence on whether it was a success or not. That tends to say to me that it wasn't something to shout about.

 

Just a point, additional revenue from an event is only financially* worthwhile if it exceeds the additional costs, preferably by at least the same proportion as the previous alternative.

* - please note that I've specified "financially" as there are may be other good reasons for running many types of event, especially galas, that can't be measured directly through a P&L account.

 

The full timetable for this year is on the website now.
https://www.nymr.co.uk/News/2025-season-opening-announcement

 

https://www.nymr.co.uk/Handlers/Download.ashx?IDMF=45d8ec0c-07e7-4c35-8c43-7b525267b835

Timetable out, Blue Sundays;

Auto This service runs only in April, May, and June. A beautifully restored, diesel-powered North Eastern Railway Electric Autocar with limited seating.
On other dates, this service does not operate, so during July and August huge gaps in the service?

Other dates will be 0930, 1210, 1520 ex Pickering and 1040, 1350 (1315 from Whitby), 1705 (1620 from Whitby) ex Grosmont only

 

Wow that Sunday service.

 

Used to be our day of choice, won't be anymore.

 

I have to admit to be quite confused by the new timetable leaflet download. It talks about the NER Railcar working in April, May and June but the main website has a whole page about it operating at February Half-Term and does not mention any extra dates. Also, the download leaflet refers to the NER Railcar as "diesel-powered" rather than Petrol powered as on the main website!

 

Wait, so Sundays from July onwards only see three return trips along the line? Plus the diner. Two locos in steam plus a diesel. Pickering - Grosmont then a round trip on the diner. Other loco works Grosmont - Pickering then a round trip to Whitby and back. The main timetable isn't great, but Sundays are dreadful.

 

Well it might have had its genesis in the early days of the lottery bid discussions when thought was given to how Pickering might be reconfigured should Carriage and Wagon move out to new facilities. In the event, although the planning approval for the Carriage Stable was implemented, the adjacent Carriage and Wagon shed has not so far been. It was obviously an early casualty in the scheme of things as my input into ideas for a Pickering reconfiguration were summarily jettisoned. To put it bluntly, rather than Park Street staff having a jolly day out to Beamish, the rather more useful concept was asking Beamish to visit the NYMR and be commissioned to offer advice on all aspects of the operation. Sadly, we've become only too well aware that seeking the advice of outsiders, no matter how successful such as Beamish, is simply not part of the Park Street mindset.

 

On the face of it it seems sparse, but what have Sunday's actually been like?
I cannot say I watch the webcams that much but cannot remember Grosmont full of folks on a Sunday. I do observe Sunday's to be quieter on my local line than they used to be, but so is the town generally much of the year, certainly than before Covid.
I assume rather than run it and they will come the management observed we ran it and they did not come.
Cannot believe if the place was heaving they would not want to run trains, unless like the big railway Sunday is a day nobody wants to work.

 

I've written that I don't want to see the NYMR sink deeper into the financial abyss, but it seems that the management have tgreater ambition than I thought - they seem to want to plumb the depths of it!

 

In 2024 the Whitby service was one train pair with no morning service to Whitby, that may have been a mistake. Sundays are very busy in Whitby and the ticket office was closed.
This year trains at 0930 and 1200 from Whitby enable full or half day trips, which, I think, is what the market will respond to.

I presume the Auto coach will enable the management to assess demand for a shuttle at the start of the season. Its path could be taken up by a short train over the summer etc.

 

Well, perhaps there has been a monumental shift in visitor habits in recent times, but Sundays have always been a busy day. There was a time when the GM (as the post was then) was on the platform at Pickering to see for himself what was happening on the trains, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen any more - and the CEO can't see anything from her office window !