North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Although I am no longer involved with the HRA, I can confirm that the 'Friends' pass is available as an additional payment on top of membership (this has always been the case), and does now cover 2 people (so it is now in line with the 'Members' pass which has always been for 2 people).

 

I must admit, never having heard about the HRA membership and annual pass what is in it for most of the railways.
So presumably a line has to pay a membership fee to the HRA, and then it appears that for a combined payment of £205 for those that visit many Heritage Lines they pay either nothing, or 25% to travel. I assume those on the list that do not mention excluding special days offer this facility during galas as well.
So in the context of this thread for £25 over a annual pass I can get the NYMR and virtually ever other line I may want to visit for free or at a substantial discount.
Where is the economic concept for the railways? What am I missing?

 

It's is £180 including friends membership. This makes the pass worth £155.

Free or reduced travel for one year, plus membership, and the opportunity to take another person as a guest on the same terms.

 

New Moorsline has an appeal for £200k towards requirement of £400k to finish the overhaul of 75029.

Bearing in mind those of us who contributed to the overhaul of the still unfinished 80135 as part of the NYMR Bridges & Wheels appeal in 2009 or similar, should we all be rushing to send money in for this appeal?

 

There are 2 sorts of HRA membership.
Corporate Membership is obviously what the HRA is all about. This also gives individual people who work for such organisations the opportunity to purchase a Privilege Card which allows free or discounted travel on other heritage railways who are also members.
However, there are some individual people who may want to also support the HRA (Or just want a Privilege Card but do not work for a HRA member). These people can join as a Friend of HRA and one of the benefits is entitlement to purchase a Friends Privilege Card.
Full details at https://www.hra.uk.com/HRA-privilege

 

The Privilege Pass was envisaged as a universal benefit for heritage railway volunteers in lieu of the various reciprocal travel arrangements whilst also generating funds for the work of the HRA. Its members pay annual membership fees in various bands by reference to their turnover. Funds generated from initiatives like the Privilege Pass help keep down annual membership fees so the notional income losses are really just another way of funding the industy trade association.

 

But don't you think that if the annual pass for one for a railway like the SVR or NYMR is correctly in the £150-180 bracket, it should not be significantly undercut by the HRA pass? I'm referring to the general public pass here, not the volunteers one.

 

I can understand the logic for working volunteers, it is the ability for anyone to apply that seems strange.

 

I suspect the numbers holding the HRA pass are so low as not to be relevant. What's interesting here is how the fare setting in one place is being affected by external factors. I'd regard the HRA pass as excellent value and, if i was one of many, that would put a significant constraint on the ability of railways to sell higher value tickets.

The principle of "family hold back" then also applies - if too many take advantage, the price will be hiked and/or availability reduced.

 

There are 58 comments on a post outlining the new fare structure, some of them defensive, but I'd say most of them are anti. We'll have to see whether it turns out to be as disatro9us as we fear. If it is, I think we should be expecting mass resignations from the PLC Management, PLC Board and Trust Board at the next AGMs - not that I'm going after them all, but it has been pointed out by one of them that there is such a thing as collective responsibility for awful decisions!

I'll put it on record now that I'm expecting another disastrous financial result for the NYMR this year, and before anyone accuses me of wanting that I'll add that I fervently hope to be wrong, and will be thoroughly dismayed if I'm not but sadly, I can't see any realistic improvement in sight.

 

The concept behind the heritage rail pass is sound but, to me, things have got out of hand. Prior to the introduction of the scheme there was an unofficial group of railways that offered reciprocal free travel for volunteers. In fact some railways still do, so the volunteers in those railways don’t need to buy a HRA pass if all they want to do is visit a few specific lines. I could never understand the logic of the NYMR offering free travel rather than reduced rate but that’s something Chris Price introduced in his time as GM when he was also on the board of the HRA. As@mdewell has said the friends HRA pass only used to cover one person. I’m guessing that has changed to avoid confusion over different conditions appertaining to the passes.

 

The original principle of the Privilege Pass scheme (formerly known as InterRail) was a reward for the volunteers/staff helping to run heritage railways, and to help promote a exchange of information between them by encouraging people to visit other railways. It was always intended to be FREE, but many railways over the years moved to a discounted travel rather than free. I guess as a board member of HRA Chris felt obliged to set an example.
I don't know about the last couple of years, but the number of Friends was no more than a couple of dozen prior to that.

PS. A survey I carried out in 2018 revealed that in most cases the perceived loss of income from visitors using InterRail cards was much less than some people thought (For a start, only half of such visitors would have done so if they had not had a card. By the time you then add in secondary spend from such visitors it worked out fairly profit/loss neutral for many railways. Another consideration ought to be that the bigger (i.e. more expensive railways) also typically have more of their own members making use of Privilege Cards on other railways).

 

Why was the Annual Pass with free return visits chosen, when it would've been possible to charge a reduced fee for return visits?

Even if the return visits had been £10, the possibility of 32,000 people making two return visits at £10 would've raised an additional £640,000.

A useful sum

 

Because HMRC Gift Aid rules do not allow that!

 

So what is the HMRC "difference" between a voucher to use in a cafe or shop and a voucher to use for another trip? Bearing in mind last year unlimited repeat trips were on offer.

 

My latest copy of the holiday brochure/begging magazine has yet to arrive …no doubt will be filed in the outdoor filing cabinet shortly after receipt .

 

I've just picked up a nuance in the Gift Aid rules that I hadn't previously been aware of, which is that, as far as I can see, even if you didn't sign the Gift Aid declaration, you could still get annual admission on the same terms as someone who did!

The relevant paragraphs is Chapter 3.39 here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...a-right-of-free-admission-to-charity-property

3.39.6 This option applies where, in return for a donation, a charity grants a right of admission to view charity property for a period of at least one year, at all times that members of the public can gain admission.

Charities can opt to:

(a) Accept a donation and allow free admission for all visits during the period covered (but the charity can specify up to 5 days when the right of free admission does not apply). However a visitor who chooses to make a donation but does not complete a Gift Aid declaration must also be able to gain free admission on the same terms. So in practice the ‘12-months entry’ price must be available to all whether they chose to make a Gift Aid declaration or not.

(My emphasis)
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The reasoning is that for the money you pay to be considered charitable, it has to be a donation; and therefore there can be no compulsion. That in turn means that a visitor who chooses not to complete the Gift Aid declaration cannot be penalised for failing to do so, i.e. the same conditions have to be available whether you choose to pay Gift Aid or not.

As far as I can see, that means that in the case of the annual admission type ticket, the price had to be available for all: it couldn't be an additional benefit just for Gift Aid claimants.

Tom

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What @Sulzerman is saying is that if you didn't claim back the Gift Aid and instead charged people a reduced amount for return visits, there's the possibility of actually increasing the income to the railway.

 

Thank you. There are two options of admission, one with free returns and the other with a reduced fee option for the first and subsequent visits. A separate annual pass with reduced price entry alongside a lower day ticket tariff.

"The charity can:

(b) Accept a donation and grant a right of admission on payment of a reduced fee, which must apply for the first and all subsequent visits during the period covered. In this scenario only the initial donation will qualify for Gift Aid. The first and subsequent admission fees are not donations but are payments of a charge for admission to view the property. A visitor who chooses to make a donation but does not complete a Gift Aid declaration must also be able to gain the same reduced rate admission on the same terms for their first and all subsequent visits."

It is difficult to know what the best option is, as customer behaviour is influenced by Price (excuse the pun).
Would option b generate more yeald?

Interestingly, the terms and conditions seem to disallow refunds. Hmmm

"Terms and conditions
3.39.13 It’s most important that the terms and conditions attached to an admission fee do not include a right to a full or partial refund of the admission fee. This may be in the event of bad weather, cancellation of an exhibition or mechanical failure of an exhibit. It’s an important condition of the Gift Aid Scheme that any donation cannot be repaid under any circumstances"

 

Exactly. So we would fill in details for the Annual Pass (name, address), then the Gift Aid questions (are you a UK tax payer and would you like to Gift Aid etc). Irrespective of the Gift Aid response we would still offer the Annual Pass (as per HMRC rules).