North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

So we are now talking about passenger journeys and not passengers. Is that actually correct or are you guessing? I believe most railways quote passengers/visitors these days for reasons I’ve previously said. I wonder how that actually compares with the other big players?

 

All I have seen recently is negative criticism about the NYMR, some think it is aimed at “management” but I regard it as critism of the NYMR itself and in particular the volunteers who give there time freely.

This week I am volunteering 5 full days during the NYMRs half term as a TTI on its Autocar and steam service (normally volunteer as a TTI and Booking Office clerk during its normal operation) yet I am only reading negative criticism or questioning comments. All gets a bit trying after a while.

My own experience of TTIs this Sunday (9am to 4pm), Monday (10am to 6pm), Tuesday (9am to 6pm).
- Steam services behind Repton, 5 coaches and very well patronised
- Auto car running pretty much to capacity. I’ve witness a lot of people getting off the Whitby Goathland steam services just to experience the autocar Grosmont to Goathland service.
- Everyone seems to be enjoying themselves
- Even on Monday when there were operational issues some took advantage of the two additional runs in the autocar.
- I’ve heard no negative comments on these services
- I noted that Tuesdays services were all running to time (certainly the ones I travelled on)
- I think the autocar is an amazing piece of kit, whether travelling in the autocar itself or its trailer, particularly knowing it was built in 1903
- the autocar “eats” the gradient from Grosmont to Goathland, taking just some 10 minutes
- apparently the autocar is one of two built in 1903 as a test bed for the Newcastle electrics, when it initially had a 80hp engine installed, then a tank engine post WW1 and now a 350 hp engine.
- the autocar gives fantastic views going uphill particularly behind the driver

 

I don’t have access to numbers only what I see, either as a TTI as a booking office clerk. Eg as a TTI I see the trains operating at capacity at peak times, I see the number of returnees, I see the number of children, I see the numbers of people getting on and off at Goathland and Whitby. And in the booking office when I asked the gift aid questions most agree, I would guess 70% but is a guess, some can’t gift aid because they aren’t a UK taxpayer (live aboard, or simply not earning enough to pay tax) with just a small minority saying no for no’s sake. This just gives me a feel for numbers. Etc etc.

 

I don’t think there is a single comment on here (or anywhere else) regarding volunteers or about the basic railway, only the way it is managed and run at the higher levels. Personally, as a currently ex volunteer (and one who could go back if things change) I have nothing but admiration for those who do their best under very difficult circumstances. A vast majority of those come to volunteer and work and just grin and bear it, hoping it will get better. I do speak to people and they do echo my thoughts.

 

Party bookings are not eligble for gift aid. Anyone who is not a UK taxpayer is ineligible to sign up for gift aid. Once the NYMR moves away from the single donation/multiple visits scenario, which represented exceptional value for money and reverts to a £49.50 day fare, they will have to offer passengers the choice of an enhanced ticket price which includes the gift aid element or a cheaper fare which excludes the amount of the gift aid. It must be remembered that the gift aid portion is classed as a voluntary donation which cannot be enforced if an intending passenger declines to pay it. When offered a straight choice, there are a large number of people that will opt for the lower fare option, particularly those that don't have large disposable incomes. My 20-30% take-up figure is based on anecdotal evidence from other charitable organisations, but is very much connected to a public perception of 'value for money'.

 

An interesting video.

 

If we are taking passenger journeys lets do a simple calculation. Let’s say 6 trains each way each day and let’s say 250 days/year of operating (a bit low). Let’s say 6 coaches at 50 seats/coach. My guessing stick makes that 12 x 250 x 6 x 50 =900,000 seats. At 300,000 passenger journeys/year, that’s only 33% occupancy so hardly full trains. That doesn’t fit in with observations. I’ve deliberately erred on the low side in my calc, as well.
We really need genuine numbers then we could end the speculation. Why aren’t they available to the membership and volunteers?

 

That would appear very black or white to me ,no shades of legal grey ..yet NYMR (or their apparent spokesperson ),not surprisingly ,has a different opinion .
Let’s hope for NYMR’s sake there’s no HMRC gift aid department employee reading this thread ,building a case on gift aid over claims on compensation paid for late running on donations on which gift aid has been claimed .
Having managed a few investigations in the last 25 years you’d be surprised how they start .

As to Sidmouth4me and his comments re NYMR negativity ..the majority on here commenting are either existing volunteers on other lines ,or current /past NYMR volunteers and no one is having a go at NYMR volunteers ,just how the railway is being run and concerned over its future .

 

I agree. The deal breaker for me would be that the “with donation” amount exceeds £50. In other words, an already high one day fare rises by a further fiver before Gift Aid can be claimed.

The voucher offsets this IF you are likely to purchase at the railway. With significant conditions attached, and what’s already been discussed about limited NYMR facilities, especially at Whitby and at Pickering at the end of the day, that’s not a compelling offer.

 

I completely agree.

I really, really, hope that NYMR have rock solid advice on this and how it will work. Because, going back to the Consumer Rights Act questions, it seems that NYMR’s attempt to honour consumer protections has put it in a position where it either has to refute its own T&Cs, or break tax law.

 

I think there will be a few smiling faces on here this morning.

 

As I pointed out earlier if the interpretation of the donation is the full amount then that isn't just a problem for the NYMR. Any museum or heritage attraction will be generally assumed to be offering a service to its visitors to which the statutory rights of consumers apply including the potential for compensation or refunds. If they are also recovering Gift Aid then the potential conflict between those visitors' consumer rights and the Gift Aid rules is inherent. Interestingly guidance on the Government web site refers to the voluntary "donation" as the additional amount either paid or recovered over the normal price. However Tom's interpretation is also supported by the guidance. The only way I can see of resolving that conflict is for the T and C's to clarify that the Gift Aid visitor is not paying for a service but is making a donation. For a non -Gift Aiding visitor the issue of a ticket is evidence of a contract to provide the service. For a Gift Aiding visitor the ticket is evidence of the right of admission to view the work of the charity which, in the case of a heritage railway charity, involves use of a train to do so. Assumimg that distinction is correct and a Gift Aided transaction does not involve the supply of any service then an additional benefit of Gift Aid would be the absence of consmers' right to compensation or refunds.

 

All of which makes me really wonder about the wisdom of defining refunds, as you've now created two categories of traveller, who are effectively indistinguishable.

 

Indeed, the consequence of treating the Gift Aided purchase as a donation of the full price of the ticket, and not a contract to provide a service, would mean non Gift Aiding passengers retain their statutory right to compensation and refunds which the Gift Aiding passengers surrender.

 

I think the part you are missing is that the service you are providing is "a right of admission to view charity property."

If I visit a stately home and pay the Gift-Aided entry fee, then simply by being admitted the charity has substantially complied with my right of admission. If it turns out that one wing of the building has had to be closed due to a water leak (akin to the "mechanical failure of an exhibit") I have still substantially managed to view the charity property.

In the NYMR case, it seems you are tying the ability to "view charity property" explicitly to the fact that a train runs along the entire line. But I still don't see that there is any particular requirement for that train to run to a timetable. If travelling on a train is an inherent part of delivering your obligation to enable the visitor to view the charity property, and the train runs at some point, then you have discharged your obligation. It doesn't really matter if it runs to the times stated or not (except that in general, it is better not to run early: running late is less of a problem).

I'm not sure where that guidance is. My reading is that the entire amount paid - whether the "full amount" (as per last year's scheme) or the "full amount + 10%" (as per this year's scheme) - constitutes the donation. I can't see anywhere where it splits the amount into separate "service provision" and "donation" pots.

Tom

 

Yes, that would be my reading. But your Ts&Cs don't make that clear.

For the avoidance of doubt: if your service goes to pot and you end up with a train full of passengers stranded at Goathland due to a signalling failure, or a number of passengers arriving back at Pickering after the last bus has departed, then good customer service would say you should try to deal with any specific problems they have. That might mean offering a free cup of tea to passengers delayed up on the moors, or a taxi for the passenger who has missed a bus. But the reason for doing that is because it represents good customer service (and is likely to lead to positive reviews "the railway looked after us when there were problems"). Putting it in Ts&Cs as a contractual obligation is where you have gone wrong. Apart from anything else, what you are offering might not be what the passenger actually wants. If I'm at Pickering and have missed the last bus, I want to get home. Standing in line to fill out a claim to get £49.50 back some days in the future isn't uppermost on my mind. Sorting out taxis would be something that is not only a practical step the railway could take, but also would closely align with what I wanted right then.

Tom

 

Who first lifted the lid on this can of worms?

 

To expand on @Jamessquared's comment. If a service is delayed, how do refunds work? Say I bought a non-GA day rover and the service is stuck between Levisham and Pickering for two hours, the Ts & Cs state :-

"9.3 If arrival of a scheduled train at the destination shown on the Ticket is delayed for reasons within the NYMR’s reasonable control then the following compensation may be claimed... Delay of 90 minutes or more: 100% of the price of that portion of the Ticket price paid that relates to travel on the delayed service".

The train was on time at Levisham, so is the refund the cost of a single from Levisham to Pickering? Or the cost of a single from Whitby to Pickering? Or half of the cost of a full line day ticket? If i bought a single from Whitby to Pickering, do I get the whole fare refunded or just the bit between Levisham and Pickering?

The whole thing is very unclear and despite being well intentioned, a bit of a mess.

 

Not mine. I fear for the NYMR's future in the face of what could be an existential threat, though there would be the small consolation of the potential for a change of both boards and management ensuing - and that really would be something to make me smile. Perhaps we could even get "Moors Line" restored to a readable information bulletin as a result!

 

Totally agree Tom and almost invariably that recovers goodwill and sends visitors away happy, or at least mollified . However, it doesn't answer the question about the consumer's statutory right to compensation or refund. If you can avoid those being invoked by good customer service that 's great ......but what guidance do you give to staff about how to deal with a customer request for compensation or refund? If there are no yardstick Tand C's to which they can refer do they just make it up as they go along? How do you avoid the "Sorry, we don't do compensation or refunds response"?