Tornado

Absolutely so. 76077 like many others have really good online updates of work being carried out and planned showing a willingness to market the product that you need people to help support. To bite the hand that feeds seems to be a massive oversight to me. The larger commercial organisations that prefer a cloak of secrecy around the work being undertaken maybe have all the revenue streams they need without keeping enthusiasts onside?
A few that deserve commendation that I follow are 72010, 4150, 82045, Herston/Selinge fleet as well as 76077

 

It's very much a mixed fortune it seems. On the one hand, WCRC need another air braked loco, the A1 Trust need work for the engine. Win win for both parties in that regard.

Repainting to BR Green seems strange given it's been in Apple Green for barely any time, and how does a repaint actually help the cause of WCRC air-braked loco shortage?

It'll be a big help to RTC to have another locomotive to rely on, however I wonder why the ELR still couldn't be met. I'm sure there's logical reasons that only those 'in the know' could state, but was it really not possible to move the loco to the ELR as a light test run, have it appear at the ELR, then move it to Carnforth for loaded tests?

As for it not appearing on any 21st Century tours, let's hope that there's talk between the Trust and WCRC or any other TOC that they can run their own tours with. For all we know they just want to run on WCRC tours before coming up with their own tour programme.
I do not, however, condone the lack of recognition of the covenantors (I have never been one) and I hope that there is a proper post eventually to them all explaining what has happened over the overhaul, why the decisions etc were made, and what has been learned for the future and what the plans are for the Trust in the long term. Otherwise, if I was a covenantor, I too would probably be questioning it...

 

I think we can comfortably say that before acceptance for mainline work, any boiler issues, rocking grate operation etc.., will have to be working to WCRC utter satisfaction.
As to who does the on-going maintenance, etc.., that will be interesting as well.
Here is hoping she gets a clean bill of health.......

 

It doesn’t state anywhere that they won’t run their own tours. However they may have decided not to because of all the costs involved. I hope there are some Aberdonians this summer with the website still stating that the Aberdonian will return in 2025. If there are as I sadly suspect no Aberdonians this summer then it will be a real shame not to see the Ferryhill turntable being used as often as could be.

 

Like many others I have no financial involvement and I can understand many who seem to have over the years donated large sums will feel upset.
But economic facts of life, as was mentioned in one of the posts, force the trust towards someone who can provide work for the loco.
The power in these relationships sits with TOC's who have steam on their licence. To me DB have a small pool of drivers and no obvious stock. VT have a programme that seems to be covered and sort of now mainly focus on GWR locos. LSL by 2025 standards have a vast pool of locos and stock, but do they need another loco that to most looks like Blue Peter anyway. So that forces WCRC and the trust together, no idea if WCRC drove a hard bargain, but if WCRC think BR Green looks better (thank you Mr Smith) then that may be the cost of doing business.

 

Indeed.

 

Of course, anyone who now wants to move away from share issues for loco restoration will have something of a set-back. Anyone looking to place money in any restoration should now be acutely aware that fine words without backing are just fine words.

I would be interested to here the review of the engineering work to date when WCRC go through it.

As a student of evasions by contractors and engineers its notable what's not been said as what has.

And, yes the "we don't do this lightly" gave me a wry chuckle...

 

As chair of another loco owning group (Albeit not a mainline loco) I can see both sides of this, and understand the reactions of the supporters, but also get a grasp of what the Trustees/Directors, etc are facing.

Ultimately most of these machines are preserved, or in Tornados case newly built, to run. They’ve got to earn themselves a coin. If they don’t, they can’t pay for their next overhaul, and suddenly they fall silent often for longer than was ever thought possible.

But sometimes in making the, sometimes difficult, choices that will allow an engine to run, those doing so have to be content that they will always upset the ones who can’t agree to the vision. And they will have a fall of support, but equally with a working engine they will be looking to draft in new support.

Sometimes choices like what the A1 trust have made aren’t simple, but are necessary. It’s just a shame the fall out with this one seems quite vicious in some circles. I’ve certainly been able to guide my own loco group through our recent events with a bit of knowing that if people aren’t throwing many knives at us on here, we are doing well!

I think/hope Tornado will do well from this. If it picks up all the work 44871 covered last year, and does it just as reliably happy days!

29th March then -

45596 Carnforth-Shap-Carlisle-S&C-Hellifield
CME Carnforth-Shap-Carlisle-S&C-Hellifield
Northern Belle Hellifled-S&C-Carlisle-Shap-Carnforth
RYTC Edinburgh Flyer York-Edinburgh-York

3 West Coast jobs in a day……Tornado up the ECML?

 

Well, it's not great, is it? Okay, the repaint into BR Sludge Green is a pity but it has been this colour before and right at the very beginning, the Trust said it would carry different liveries appropriate to an A1 throughout their original service life. Apple Green was never set in stone unlike how BR EP Blue appears to have become with 60007, for example.

Okay, it's ended up with Smith but it could have ended up with Hosking which on a personal note, I really wouldn't have liked.

It also makes me question what the future employment prospects are for the staff involved with 21st Century Railtours.

Finally, I'd also say that more than a few people on here owe @martin1656 an apology for lambasting/ridiculing his suggestions in the past that this would be the outcome.

 

I would suggest "engine running" is not the goal, but "engine running sustainably" (I won't say profitably, but running at a loss that the donation funding can sustain might be a good metric).

If it's tied up with WCR, but doesn't get run, and misses out on work elsewhere, and comes back more worn and with nothing in the kitty, then what?

As ever, the devil is in the detail, but I note the absolute lack of detail.

 

I am not sure it has been stated anywhere that the loco won't be available for individual hire. The email stated that West Coast will operate the loco and it will be used on West Coast trips, Northern Belle and Railway Touring Company tours. We all know there is a large volume of work available there, but there could still be opportunities for A1 trust promoted trips and visits to heritage railways. Although with a business head on, why would you undertake the expenditure and risk of operating your own trips if someone else can do that for you?
Also RTC operate countrywide, so it certainly does not mean a tie to Carnforth, although it would be wise for it operate close to a maintenance base for the first few months.

 

But of course they won't but before everyone starts dreaming about Tornado hauling anything, she will have to be examined by WCRC's engineering staff and signed off as fit to run, and if anything is not as per the laid down standards, it will have to be rectified, and as its WCRC, there will be a vail of silence, rather convenient for the trust's board you might say, I hope that the snagging list isn't too long, and that tornado returns to the mainline soon.

 

Yes, if West Coast use a generator coach (which I am reliably informed they have tucked away somewhere at Carnforth, but hasn't been seen in the flesh for some time).
The reality is that a class 47 is very likely to be seen on the back for convenience and insurance, however, unlike a Black 5 or even Tangmere, Tornado is far more able to pull 10/11 plus a 47 without the need for assistance.
I note the Clan Line hauled trips last year saw little or no interference from the helper on the back.

 

Indeed. I’ve lost count of exactly how many organisations they’ve ‘not let down lightly’ over the last two years, let alone those who’ve bought tickets for tours that they knew they couldn’t possibly run due to lack of boiler, ECTS, etc etc.

So having dined, and feeling a little less hangry than earlier (apologies for that) , what can we deduce from all this?

This is purely my opinion, I have no sources to back any of this up.

Firstly, the Trust now appears to have admitted defeat in getting the loco back on the mainline using its own and contract labour. In part this could be because they can no longer fund the contractors fees? (As said above, WCRC’s assessment of the loco’s condition will make interesting reading ).

Secondly, where does this leave their much vaunted ‘21st Century Steam’ tour arm? This comprised paid staff, including a Marketing Director (who iirc was also i/c fund raising?). I assume that WCRC have their own perfectly capable team, so is 21st Century Steam now superfluous? How much was expended on this operation over the 3 fallow years?

Thirdly, one of the few areas of real positive progress under the current regime has been development of the DLW2 site, with many appeals to the supporters for track and ballast etc., to provide a mainline connected base for Tornado. Bearing in mind that a significant proportion of the support base is located in the north east, if the loco is now exiled at Carnforth then that’s not going to go down well is it?

Fourthly, apart from the boiler fiasco, the other massive overrun has been the ETCS system, the justification for which was the USP of being the only loco to be able to run on the south ECML. Will that work be available through WCRC - I don’t know.

Also the Aberdeens. With LSL now camped north of Hadrian’s wall, will WCRC want to go up against them in what might be a limited market?

Finally for now, where does this leave the A1 support volunteers, stewards etc, who have turned out year after year, another group who have invested significant amounts of money and time, often staying in hotels overnight before and after a tour, and working 15 hours in between?

 

Bahamas is working for Vintage Trains on the 29th

 

Fair point well made. Duly ammeneded

 

This.
What odds on another press release regretting that it was unable to take place, but look at all the shiny new track at at Darlington....?

It also removes any leverage disgruntled covenanters have. I suspect radio silence on comms to such people may track the time this has taken to negotiate.

 

Can we please get rid of the idea Tornado is in poor condition. It is out on the mainline tomorrow, it would not be allowed out on the mainline unless it was fit to run - locos have to be declared fit to run by an independent assessor before they go anywhere near a mainline.
Yes, West Coast will run an assessment of it, as you would of any asset you are taking on and they may request some work - but it would not be going mainline tomorrow unless it was fit to do so and had satisfied an independent acceptance body. The email states the loco has all paperwork in place.
I would strongly suspect a West Coast engineer has already inspected the loco at the Nene Valley and was maybe present during the test runs last week, prior to this announcement being made.

 

In the press release, the line "during the current certification that covers us to 2028"
interested me. Which certification is this? If it's the boiler, does this mean all that work is for 2-3 years?