If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by The Black Hat, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,207
    Likes Received:
    1,353
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You can always opt for the two station return at roughly half the price of an all line fare.

    On a per mile basis ( which is reflection of distance driven infrastructure costs) the NYMR is by no means the most expensive and ,as suggested recently, current fares per mile are cheaper comparatively after allowing for inflation than those charged by the infant preservation society in the early 1970,s.
     
    MuzTrem likes this.
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    27,787
    Likes Received:
    64,439
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If you are comparing yourself against a subsidised bus service, you’re making the wrong comparison. Instead you need to look at things from the point of view of a family staying in the area looking for a day out. How do your prices compare against, say, Castle Howard or Jorvik? The answer is, not favourably.

    As for dynamic pricing, you run the risk of spending a lot of money on IT and annoying your main supporters for no benefit. It would never work for a heritage railway. That’s not to say that price differentials aren’t possible. Discounts for booking early online are already routine across the heritage railway sector. But perhaps you could go further, for example lower prices mid week or in shoulder seasons. It might be interesting to look at when Whitby is actually in demand. For example if you limited Whitby to, say, May to September but you could run just to Grosmont in the early spring and autumn at a lower fare point. Doing so would would give you cash flow at an important point in the year and would also enable you to plan maintenance of Whitby-only locos and stock in the shoulder season taking some of the pressure off the fleet. You might even find an operational niche for your teak carriages!

    Tom
     
    alexl102, ghost, 21B and 4 others like this.
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    27,787
    Likes Received:
    64,439
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I thought @Steve had calculated a comparable price would be £40? So allowing for inflation, you are about 20% more expensive - certainly not cheaper.

    As for per mile costs, it’s a really hard comparator to make - not least because with a day rover, you might travel multiple times on a shorter line. (When I visit the IoW, I would routinely do two round trips, not one). I think for a finger in the air, infrastructure costs in proportion to line length is probably fair, but I think rolling stock costs tend to fall as length increases, because they can use existing stock more efficiently. (If a five mile line and a ten mile line both operate one train per day, they have identical rolling stock needs - so the longer line is cheaper if assessed on a per-mile basis).

    Tom
     
    ghost, 21B, Steve and 1 other person like this.
  4. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,207
    Likes Received:
    1,353
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But that’s a form of dynamic pricing…..varying fares in response to seasonal demand. If that works it’s then a relatively short hop to varying fares by time of day to reflect daily changes in demand e.g the popular 0920 departure from Pickering would have a higher fare and the largely empty 1600 one might be at a bargain basement price.
     
  5. 60044

    60044 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    780
    Likes Received:
    1,207
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Salisbury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Actually, there is no evidence yet that the SNG visit has been a financial success. Yes, the trains have been well filled, but the fares were reduced and presumably those sold to Fox & Edwards were supplied to them at a discount. I imagine that the NYMR will have paid hefty fees for both the movement and the hire fees for the engine, so it will be interesting to see what the actual overall yields for the visit were.
     
  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    28,729
    Likes Received:
    28,654
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I can. But if my day out involves Whitby, then the comparison is between £50/head on the train, or an extra 20 miles’ drive with longer and more controllable time at the destination. That saving pays for other treats on the day out, and is an enhancement to certain members of the family.

    As for the “internal” journeys, the timetables leave greater gaps than before so make walking from the train less attractive.
     
  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    28,729
    Likes Received:
    28,654
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think you stretch the point rather - dynamic pricing is what you see airlines, main line companies and Ticketmaster do. What is being described is demand based pricing, preset and at a known quantity for the purchaser.

    I happen to think there’s a role for that on railways with strongly tidal flows, to encourage take-up of less popular trains and smooth demand. The scope is limited on NYMR because of the constraints of the Esk Valley section, and the need for time at the destination, but it may have a place.

    However, the one thing I would suggest is that you use discounts to encourage use of those less popular services, rather than jacking up prices further for the most popular. The outcome may be the same, but the perception is very different.
     
    alexl102, ghost, Chris86 and 3 others like this.
  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    28,729
    Likes Received:
    28,654
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Fair comment, though I have made an assumption given what @Lineisclear says elsewhere that the modelling for the event will have assumed a decent net profit allowing for those costs. Doubly so as it seems very clear that NYMR tend to consider costs on an absolute rather than marginal basis when considering what is or is not viable.
     
    alexl102 likes this.
  9. 60044

    60044 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    780
    Likes Received:
    1,207
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Salisbury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You are ignoring another important point here -could it be that a big problem the NYMR faces is that it s appeal to the general public is becoming less attractive? If that is the case, then it will take a lot of experimentation and tinkering with fares all of which may ultimately be to no avail. The NYMR's management needs to take a long hard look at other attractions surrounding it. I've already drawn attention upthread to Flamingoland's peak season half price offers, but at some point will there be some recognition that these other attractions develop and change year on year, but the NYMR does not? Are they struggling to an equal degree in their visitor numbers? If they are not, then even the densest zealot for the NYMR becoming a "Paignton & Dartmouth clone" will surely have to come to understand that it needs to increase the breadth of attraction and give people, not just enthusiasts, a reason to revisit. Otherwise it will become a sterile, simplified and souless wasteland more rapidly than it already is.
     
    21B likes this.
  10. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,207
    Likes Received:
    1,353
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The NYMR monitors closely the trends in visitor numbers at other potentially competing attractions and across the wider hospitality sector. Typically those are around 20% down on pre pandemic levels. The NYMR’s performance is significantly above average.
     
  11. Platform 3

    Platform 3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    880
    Likes Received:
    1,197
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    So if visitor numbers are so good, and the Annual Pass scheme so successful, why is the railway losing so much money?

    Sent from my SM-S926B using Tapatalk
     
    47406, ghost, YorkyLad and 7 others like this.
  12. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    28,729
    Likes Received:
    28,654
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That begs a couple of further questions:
    1. What is the relative performance like if stretched back further - perhaps to 2010?
    2. How does the relationship between visitor numbers and profitability over that period?

    That would be interesting to see for both the comparison you answer to, and also specifically for heritage railways.

    My own suspicion is that the answer to @Platform 3's question in post #5291 above lies in the nature of the cost base, and especially the acknowledged unusually high (for the sector) reliance on paid staff.
     
  13. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,207
    Likes Received:
    1,353
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I’m not going to deny that labour cost is a huge challenge made considerably worse by the recent budget changes. However, the fact is that just as it can’t function without its volunteers the NYMR cannot operate without its paid staff. The major reason for continuing financial losses is the unsustainable increases in cost of maintaining the infrastructure of a relatively long line.
     
    Spitfire likes this.
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    27,787
    Likes Received:
    64,439
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think a seasonal pricing model isn't what most people would understand as dynamic pricing, and to be fair, wouldn't require very sophisticated IT to implement, just a robust analysis of historic traffic figures. As a model, it does give transparency to users in knowing what they will pay for a given service.

    Dynamic pricing I understand to be varying prices reactive to minute-by-minute demand, such that you don't know what you will pay until you try to book - hence the rise in the airline and hotel world of an ecosystem of resellers and price comparison websites. That would be very expensive to implement and, I would suggest, enormously unpopular with your potential visitors.

    Tom
     
    alexl102, ghost, Chris86 and 4 others like this.
  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    12,729
    Likes Received:
    11,847
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You keep trotting out this statement but, according to bankofengland.co.uk £3 in 1970 was worth £40.40 in Feb 2025
     
    ghost, YorkyLad, Diamond Gaz and 2 others like this.
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    27,787
    Likes Received:
    64,439
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Edit to add: I think such a model would also be incompatible with a Gift Aid pricing model, since the key feature of Gift Aid is that the visitor is making. donation to view the work of the charity, not paying for a service. A key point of such a model is that the same donation offer has to be available to people who don't wish to make their donation Gift Aidable. You could not guarantee that since every individual visitor would in effect be being offered a unique price not necessarily available to any other visitor. So I think even if you wanted to explore dynamic pricing, it would be a complete non-starter if you also wished to retain the Gift Aid model.

    Tom
     
    ghost, flying scotsman123 and 35B like this.
  17. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    8,627
    £/mile and comparisons with 1970s are ultimately pretty meaningless. What matters is the perceived value of the offering means that fair value in the mind of the number of customers you want is achieved.

    The SNG trains appear to me to have demonstrated that they were under priced. A lot of value offered for the perceived benefits, and to be fair that’s probably a result of the very high Whitby prices.

    I would be interested in a study of the effect that pricing the Whitby trains higher still. Whilst offering a range of lower prices for internal services and thinking about how to increase the perception of value in those internal services.

    I suspect that you could put another 20% on the Whitby trains, run fewer of them and still fill those you run. They would be more profitable and the reduction in numbers opens up space for more internal services.

    At the moment you don’t have the space in the operation to accommodate more internal services so are strapped to this wheel of diminishing returns that is the Whitby service. It appears to have the pull of the WHR, so price it up. Accept you will have fewer takers (but at a higher profit) and use lower prices internal services to fill up the railway.

    Worth modelling surely?
     
    ghost, Spitfire, 60044 and 1 other person like this.
  18. D7076

    D7076 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,538
    Likes Received:
    691
    So despite rumours (will await actual accounts ) of a circa £500k loss in the year just ended if it hadn’t been for the latest rough shunt ,the model would have been continued(and the effect of last year won’t really be known until existing tickets expire )….
    But the loss isn’t down to excessive payroll costs but substantial cost of infrastructure structure improvements ,despite these being minimal post Goathland bridge renewals …and now causing rolling stock issues …
     
  19. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,207
    Likes Received:
    1,353
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    As always with such calculations the result depends on which index you use but assuming the BofE one is the most appropriate your£40. 40 would be the Pickering Grosmont distance equivalent fare with the all line fare being around £55/£56.


    As
     
  20. 60044

    60044 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    780
    Likes Received:
    1,207
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Salisbury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Bear in mind that the rumoured 500K loss last year was after the receipt of 440K in gift aid!!!

    Perhaps it could be explained to me why, if it was possible to profitably fill the SNG trains at an unseasonable time of year, it would not be possible to fill the off peak departures in the normal operating season with a £30 round trip Pickering-Grosmont fare? Perhaps the loadings mightn't be quite as good, but neither would the costs if one of the home-based engines was used.
     
    47406 likes this.

Share This Page