North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

How can the NYMR in particular, be a glue that bonds local communities when you are advocating not stopping at those communities?
Your answers are increasingly swaying towards 'Whitby is the only destination that the railway should be concerned with', despite that fact that the NYMR doesn't own that section (and could be removed from it with a change of political policy), and seems to be neglecting the section that it does own (and for which its Charity aims are written).

 

I knew a couple who used to rent a cottage in the area for their annual holiday, specifically to ride behind/view SNG.

 

I wouldn't be so harsh, but agree that this logic is unfollowable - a good consumer offer being replaced by a materially worse one has nothing to do with when the railway runs, from the customer point of view.

What seems impossible to understand is the relationship between demand and income, and where Gift Aid did or did not fit into that picture. I come at this from the opposite perspective to @Steve, but simply do not understand how a scheme can work viably on 7 days/week operation, but ceases to be viable at only 5 days/week operation, yet can be effectively replaced by the other Gift Aid model, which jacks up prices materially.

The lessons of retailers like the founders of M&S, who realised that significant profits could be made at low margins by selling in volume, seem to be being lost in favour of a pursuit of margin per seat. Unfortunately, the NYMR is not the sort of luxury product that can detach price from cost of provision (a sore point, I've just ordered a replacement iPad...), and does not have the "spare" visitors to be able to afford to shed demand.

 

I think that one “trick” not often witnessed in heritage railway pricing is the low “entrance fee” multiple opportunities to spend more whilst “on site”. It requires a few mindset shifts, including seeing the railway as the destination and not as a transport solution, and focus on maximising dwellings time.

 

We disagree on one important thing here - I do increasingly think the NYMR is being run by idiots! To be fair, there do seem to be encouraging messages, indicating critical thinking, by the Trust Board chairman appearing on Facebook but he seems to be a lone voice on the Trust/PLC boards.

Whitby is always going to be a problem. It cannot be denied that it is where people want to go, and that it sucks a lot of business away from the railway and into the tills of Whitby businesses instead. Until the NYMR's management realise that they actually have to work at making the railway a more attractive destination in its own right that will not change and the rot that has set in will only get worse. And this is not a heartfelt desire for things to go back to "the way they were" - it's more of a desire to go back to the days when the railway was successful!

 

I agree in principle, but it sounds as though you're talking about secondary spend here, and trying to focus on that can be a dangerous path to go down - sales can fluctuate drastically according to weather, and the NYMR is really not geared up for that - its catering provision is limited in both variety and capacity, for example, although with the necessary vision and investment (cue Lineisclear blanching in horror!) that could be rectified at Pckering (where it owns a pub and a cafe, both unused!) but less easily anywhere else - and it is easy to run up losses when many costs are fixed and demand can fluctuate dramatically in the course of a day..

 

I didn’t use the words secondary spend and that’s only one component anyway. The considerations you mention are real, and yet also have become a straight jacket preventing creativity. The train ride and tea model is tired. We’re going to have to get out of that box.

What was actually in my head was something considerably different and radical in the presentation of price.

 

I'd need to see what you thought, but as a general principle, I tend to bridle at attractions where, having paid an entry fee, I then have to pay more to access certain parts of the attraction. (I make an exception for food, but even things like parking, it rankles when I have to pay £80 to go to an attraction and then another tenner for the parking: Hampton Court, I'm looking at you ... Oddly, I would be happier to pay £90 and free parking even though the financial impact is the same, so it is less about the money and more about the principle).

I've seen at places like Duxford they have some kind of simulator-type rides that you pay extra for, the pricing I suspect being a way to manage demand on something that has very low throughput relative to overall visitor numbers. But as a general principle, I prefer to pay an entry fee and then know I am free to wander and see what I want.

Tom

 

When we visited on Sundays in 2023 and 2024, Whitby was never a choice for us, concentrating on the NYMR core of Grosmont-Pickering, you could get the 4 locos in with ease.

So not having a Grosmont-Pickering day rover option is more lunacy, mind you the 2024 Sunday timetable versus the 2025 Sunday timetable makes even this argument irrelevant now, as we wouldn't visit at all sadly.

 

37264 just arrived at Goathland on 12.35 from Grosmont. Load 3, looked very lightly loaded on the webcam.

 

I share your annoyance at having to pay for parking as well as an entrance fee where the car park is owned by the venue. However, I'm sympathetic to the NYMR situation at Pickering, Goathland and, to a lesser extent, Grosmont. At Pickering, especially, there are non-railway car parks that charge for parking and are well used by visitors to the town who are not travelling on the railway. If railway parking is free, that is going to be their first choice and the railway gets nothing other than a full car park. You can't charge and offer a refund on the travel ticket price because HMRC are then quick to point out that part of the ticket price includes parking and that is subject to vat and this then applies to every ticket sold.

 

Inevitable that an attraction in the middle of South west London traffageddon with decent public transport links discourages drivers, no?

Simon

 

Having endured some of that in recent weeks, I get the point. But I remain with @Jamessquared in my view of additional costs for an attraction.

Let's not also get into the question of how public transport doesn't necessarily serve the needs of would be visitors - I note that for a Sarumite to arrive by 11:00, they'd need to leave Salisbury station at 8:46 and change twice. Or they could drive straight up the A303 & M3, taking about 90 minutes and saving considerable money on a family trip. A point about catchment and logistics that applies to NYMR as much as it does Hampton Court (my earlier comments about day trips don't mention the 2 hours/80 miles each way to Pickering).

 

Indeed - locally, a similar situation exists at Swanage / Norden, where the railway doesn’t own the car park. But even though I know the reason for a charge there is sensible, it still rankles. It would rankle even more if, for example, you paid your day rover fare but were then told “entry to the museum is extra”. So I am doubly sceptical about additional charges once you are inside the site boundary, as it were.

Tom

 

Decent public transport only if you are coming out of London. @35B has pointed out the issue coming from Salisbury, but the irony of that trip was we were coming from my mother’s house which is an hour closer to London, but on the wrong line. The the train options were either 1h 40, changing at Clapham Junction, or 1h 15 changing at Virginia Water, Weybridge and Surbiton. As opposed to 35 minutes drive. And we’d still have a ten minute drive to the station even with that convoluted train journey.

Tom

 

Even more so when the Railway's social media are currently advertising the chance to view 60007 up close in Grosmont yard for a couple of days. Wonder how many potential customers may be confused by the fact that they can't buy a ticket to Grosmont.

 

Or decide not to bother with travelling, and just drive to Grosmont.

 

Seems a bit of a Hail Mary, hoping for some deus ex-machina to sort things out. The contribution to the local economy/community is alluded to in most heritage railway annual reports but is there any evidence that the (non-affiliated) local community (individuals/businesses, let's forget local government as they don't have any money) are prepared to support the local railway financially? What was the Llangollen's experience? I think once you sign up to "I/we are doing everybody a favour by running the railway" mindset, you are probably doomed.

 

I'd see it the other way round. If you can persuade the local authorities that you are an essential part of the economy, you can benefit from their influence and support. That may open up grants - one of the relative success areas at NYMR - and, more importantly, may extend your lobbying/campaigning reach. But it's very vulnerable to an Emperor's New Clothes moment if anyone actually looks closely at the claims.

 

Where is the USP in that sort of operation? Surely a steam loco for all or most of the journey is the attraction with some coaches that look different, and by definition be more comfortable than any rubbish on the National Network.