North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Auto coach in the sun yesterday, seen on twitter
https://x.com/Railpassion1/status/1908923453001891886?t=UTcIgPZZOlKgc8xRTcJw5w&s=19

 

I've been fighting this battle on three separate forums - Nat Pres, the NYMR Unofficial, and Facebook, and they are all long-running so I cannot recall where, or provide details. Its a s***load of pages to go through, and I don't have the time or inclination to do so so I'll have to ask you to trust my recollection, or remind me of where I went wrong. In any case I think the point I'm really trying make is that the bigger railways have become seduced by their turnovers and lost sight of the fact that what really keeps them afloat, effectively subsidising them, is supporters and volunteers. They are sometimes portrayed as a necessary evil to be tolerated, when in reality they are really the foundation that underpins the whole enterprise.

 

And your objective is?

 

Hope so, riding in a superb NER coach between Grosmont and Goathland earlier this year was a wonderful heritage experience provided by the NYMR.

 

I would suggest that 60044 is fighting for what he believes in and that is the fact that those managing the railway are totally on the wrong track and need to change. I may not be in full agreement with his thoughts and opinions but I am for the most part, especially with the way the railway is being managed. Or perhaps mis-managed. I also know that we are not alone in those views, both paid and volunteer staff and a fair few respected and knowledgeable posters on here. A recent Trip Advisor comment: "Had a terrible visit, trains were late and I asked some staff why it was late, all they said was they could not tell me as they would be sacked for speaking negatively about the organisation. Rather ironic as my question interrupted a group conversation of the staff discussing the management being incompetent. "

 

I don't claim to be a guru, but I'm trying to point out that I don't think that what is happening on the NYMR now is deeply concerning to me, and to others who have contacted me. I'm sure its right that the path forward will inevitably be one of compromise, but I don't see any move towards any form of compromise by the management. I'm not saying I know all the right answers, but I do believe that some drastic changes are needed, and I don't believe either the current management or its unofficial mouthpiece, for example, when he says that various special events are being planned to help transform the railway's prospects. I occasionally used to go to special events committee meetings and know that most things are planned at least in the autumn of the previous year in order to get people and things booked and organised - but, is there even a special events committee nowadays? More and more we see the dead hand of management trying to do less and less, and until that management is replaced with something inspired and invigorating, and more inclusive towards volunteers who want to do that, the NYMR will continue to follow a downward spiral towards implosion. My hope is that I can stir up enough feeling to help stop that spiral! Raising awareness and support is one way, exposing and shaming the managements shortcomings is another.

 

deleted post

 

But only in the form of a visit by a carriage formerly based there, and also by a carriage body (the Autocar) that was formerly in a field near Pickering. How good would it have been to see both restored and based on the NYMR, a former NER line, rather than an ex-MR one at Embsay! A big factor, even back then, was the overbearingly commercial approach to management of the NYMR as a tourist attraction.

 

60044's suggestion that he 's fighting a battle on social media is instructive. I respect his consistent vision for the NYMR even though I believe it's based on a misguided nostalgic view of what's financially sustainable in today's conditions. He highlights the pivotal role of supporters and volunteers and on that we can happily agree. Where we may differ on is on who those supporters are. If 60044 means just the members then their subscriptions alone provide around 2% of the railway's income. True their contribution to appeals and legacies can be significant but supporters include the visiting public for whose benefit the railway exists. 60044 laments the fact that the has become an £8million annual turnover charity but if it wasn't run on business lines it could not survive. The real financial foundation that underpins the whole enterprise is the willingness of public supporters to pay enough to allow the members and volunteers to enjoy their hobby of preserving and operating the railway. Securing that support depends on business management as does the continued support and confidence of banks, grant funders and the industry regulators.
There are numerous ways in which as a member or volunteer 60044 and others can make a constructive contribution. Instead they seem to prefer a campaign of criticism including posts such as a recent one publicising third party comments that serve only to undermine and damage the railway.
The tragedy is that pursing a "battle" on social media is fighting on a pointless battleground. It may help those that disagree with the leadership of the NYMR vent their frustration by firing salvos into the air but really changing things involves the harder task of getting directly involved.

 

Does the £8m business still work without the members and volunteers 'enjoy[ing] their hobby', or would it need to become a £10m+ business to replace the volunteers' contributions?

Equally, is an £8m business, without input from supporters and volunteers maintaining and operating steam engines as their hobby, still delivering the benefit the visiting public are looking for? People can get to Whitby and back to Grosmont on a diesel for £8 on National Rail… without the clear USP of a heritage experience (which for most will mean steam not diesel) the NYMR will become harder to differentiate.

I'm sure it's been said before, but talking about members' and supporters contributions only in terms of direct financial support is reductive, and in most instances misses the point.

Simon

 

As usual, this is a reply from Lineisclear that twists arguments. The reality is that whatever the NYMR's turnover may be it is a business that is failing, but one that seems to be unwilling to adapt itself to try to reduce its level of failing, other than cutting back on its maintenance, and thereby storing up more liabilities for the future. In reality it should be looking at its major recurring costs, the most significant of which is staffing; he as previously emphasised the cost of coal but the increase there is still match (and probably dwarfed) by the annual rise in the wage bill. They are both seen as necessities, so why stress one over the other? As for support from banks etc., they tend to be far more favourable to a successful business rather than a struggling one, and imho are more likely to be impressed by a regime that is successfully trying to rebuild its business to the levels of surpluses once seen, rather than one desperately trying to plug the holes at its waterline.

Why, too, seek to categorise the average visitor as being as valuable to the railway as members and volunteers? The former are casual customers, the latter are by definition, I feel, more devoted to the railway. I doubt if many legacies come from the former group, but rather come almost exclusively from the latter one.

I have made my share of contributions over the years to he NYMR, but I now see what I and others have done been steadily eroded in so many ways. c I can't (and wouldn't want to!) get to the NYMR to walk up and down with protest placards, I can only make my case here and elsewhere and hope that someone has the wit to pay attention. That seems very unlikely, based on the evidence here, but I feel I have to try.

 

Nice deflection. He never mentioned subscription value. I suspect he was referring to their free labour without which the line could not function.

So how much do the general public contribute to railway appeals, and how many legacies do non-members leave (average per annum), compared to members?

Please show where he lamented the turnover figure? He lamented that it has lost its enthusiasm for NER/LNER heritage. I don't believe he has ever criticised the turnover figure.
Anyway, turnover is pure vanity - if you're turning over £8m and still losing £0.5m per annum then something is seriously wrong.

He obviously cares enough about the railway to make these postings. If long standing supporters and volunteers like 60044 and Steve are leaving then maybe you should actually listen instead of always jumping to defend the management's current course of action?

 

It's asked indirectly by others, but what would the NYMR have to pay for volunteer labour if those volunteers didn't donate their time? Even at national minimum wage (a gross under-estimate of many of the skills involved), I suspect the value is well into 7 figures.

 

The restoration was down to the admirable persistence of one man and his support at Embsay and use his location as an excuse to denigrate the NYMR is rather sad, the Autocar isn't really suitable for regular season use on the NYMR being in truth rather a niche attraction, I enjoyed it at Embsay and I hope it visits other lines, especially ex NER, now its trailer improves the transfer viability.

 

I err towards @60044 on this; the departure of a local vehicle represents a missed opportunity. I'm glad it's been able to visit, but the restoration of such vehicles is what makes preservation special - not the routine running of standardised vehicles.

 

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of paid staff where is the evidence there is an army of volunteers at the NYMR (or any other Heritage Line for that matter) waiting to either undertake more than they do now, or start volunteering? If all these people are out there why is virtually every line advertising for volunteers?
Unless you live within a couple of miles of where you volunteer, volunteering costs money, and a large number of folks seem very concerned about the economic situation, even before the events of the past week or so.

 

I'm not seeking to denigrate Stephen Middleton, and actually several key members of his team came from within the LNERCA ranks. I think it could be possible to sensible use of it at the NYMR and I'd prefer to see it there, but I accept its not a heavy duty people mover for daily use, and couldn't run to Whitby, so sadly it is of no interest to the NYMR management, whose eyes seem to be largely fixed in those directions.