North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

I agree with the Spring Bank Holiday week, but Easter most schools were off before Easter and went straight back on the Tuesday.
Early May Bank Holiday always seem a non event, at least it has for as long as I can remember.

 

Be careful what you preach. two of the NYMR footplate turns are currently over 11 hours with the longest being 11h 40m. These are theoretical times but I know that, quite often these are exceeded for various reasons. Late running is a prime one and, depending on the loco, it can take more than the allotted hour to dispose of. Most people also turn up early for their turn as they allow for delays en route. I've just done a quick audit of the May roster and, of the 34 long turns, 8 of them are crewed by drivers who live over an hour away from their sign on point. That excludes the likes of people who live in Kent & Cornwall, who I know won't be travelling home after their turn (although I also know it has been done.) If you suggest splitting the turns then that immediately increases the number of crews required. It would also prove to be unpopular as these long turns are the preferred ones for most as they are 72 mile turns, the days of the legendary three-tripper (108 miles) having long gone. The shorter turns at New Bridge used to be one turn but the shunt needed when the carriage stable opened made it over 12 hours . These split turns are now quite short and only cover one round trip so aren't all that popular with crews, especially when a cleaner is rostered as there is little opportunity to swap sides or let the cleaner have a go. A driver or fireman doesn't want to give up his day for just 18 miles of doing what he's come to do, especially when much of it might have been spent in travelling in the car to and from the railway. Having said that, there are some older crews who are quite happy with the short day.

 

It's not a case of preaching but simply reflecting ORR guidance on management of fatique with which I suspect Steve is familiar. The normal maximum is a 12 hour shift with a door to door maximum of 14 hours but that can be reduced to 10 hours in some circumstances. I was aware of some of the long post rostered turn drives in the past and admitted that I've done similar. As some volunteers live further away than would be typical if they were employees it may be more likely that they will be tempted to take such risks. The point is that such decisions by individuals can put the railway at risk of prosecution if there's an incident resulting from fatique. The NYMR's fatique management policy forming part of its SMS uses explanatory language giving helpful guidance as to what is expected. If there's no evidence of whether that guidance is being followed that could increase the risk of prosecution and the potential penalties.

 

So what steps are the NYMR taking to comply with its responsibilities as you describe them? How are you monitoring and recording this and what steps might you take in the future to address working hours balanced with the needs of volunteers? From what you described it looks like even the NYMR isn’t immune from the risk of prosecution you worry about.

 

Does anyone on here know if there is any evidence yet of lower passenger numbers and/or lower ticketing income following the latest ticketing policy? I can't help wonder with the amount of feedback I've seen on forums and tripadvisor whether the railway will get out of this year with anything left in the coffers.

I admit to having nothing short of immense frustration at the NYMR prices this year having convinced the family to holiday in Grosmont during the next school holidays. Originally we were planning to use 12 month passes and be on the railway the majority of the week. With the new prices I'll be lucky to get more than a day. Bearing in mind our local railway, admittedly with much less mileage (though with as many stations, two museums and other things on offer), offers a family membership including 3 days worth of rover tickets for £70, its very hard to justify £99 per day.

 

What was the price in 2023?
Because is it a question of £49 a day being excessive, or if it was say £45 in 2023 then 2024 was just a year "with a great deal". I see that as a member you can still get a 50% reduction, not sure what membership costs.
It is a long line with all the extra requirements from NR, so it is bound to be more than the WSR or SVR. Although having said that the WSR and NYMR fare for a family (2 adult 2 child) is £99 at each. The SVR only offering either a one adult and 2 child at £55 or 2 adults and 4 child at £88 all walk up fares, some reductions can be claimed by booking in advance if you have that flexibility.

So although I agree it becomes a big bill for a day out, does it not everywhere (it is £60 here in Swanage for a family ticket on a line that is 5.5 mile long).

There may be many issues at NYMR but I remain unconvinced the fare is overly one of them.

 

I think as much as anything it is the psychology; nudging £50 feels like a lot in a way that sub £30 doesn’t.

Added to that is the change in “annual pass” fares. Last year you could get an annual pass for £49. This year it is £180. At which point any discussion about whether £180 actually still represents good value is a moot point: the portrayal is of a massive price hike. In other words, regardless of whether the fares represent good value for money or not, the point has been lost in poor PR of how they have been implemented.

The lack of a day rover Pickering - Grosmont at a lower level feels like an own goal to me.

Family fares are interesting. Some railways go down what is basically “child is half adult” fare; others push the adult fare up but offer “Kids for a quid” or similar. You might end up in the same place for a 2+2 family, but create very different perception. I’m not sure what is right.

(For example, a line offering £49 adult fares and kids for a quid will cost a 2+2 family £100. Another line offering adults at £33 and kids at £16.50 will end up basically the same, at £99 for a 2+2 family. But the headline fare for the lone traveller will have a very different perception).

I’m convinced that the desire to get Gift Aid on fares is pushing and pulling the NYMR into some really sub-optimal decisions about fares. A model that works for a railway like the IoWSR (which is effectively one main site, with a long round trip that starts and finishes there) is different from a line which is double-ended in terms of originating traffic; has an operational extension which goes away from the “charity property” and where short journies are a viable use case.

Tom

 

Thursday is generally one of the busier days of the week in terms of passenger numbers so why choose to shut on Thursday is an odd one. I suspect, but don't know, that those in charge, having decided to only open on five days, have been persuaded that it is better that those two days are consecutive, mainly from an operational point, otherwise logic would suggest Monday & Friday. I'm also told by a member of staff, but again don't know, that the reason for cutting back services to a 5 day week is not in response to demand or as a realistic cost cutting exercise, it is to reduce the pressure on the structures, track and stock to a level where it might scrape through. (Their words, not mine.)

I really do want the NYMR to get through this bad patch and be here in 2026 and beyond but with every conversation I have I get more concerned.

 

I agree with the Pickering Grosmont comment, although that assumes you have enough TTI's and or barrier staff at Whitby to police it, otherwise the potential for short faring is great.

Yes £50 or £100 for the family is a sort of artificial price barrier that £99 is not. Which is why I guess a driver experience may cost £499 not £500 or a car £12995 not £13000.

The problem perhaps will give the NYMR more grief is how many days steam will be able to operate. A £54.50 fare from my local station Wareham would get you to Farnborough Main and back on an anytime ticket about 166 miles of travel. The steam premium is worth it, however not sure many of Joe Public would view a 48 mile round trip for the same fare on what is just an older version of what runs past their door as great value.

 

I agree - it's the perceived price point per person. £50/head is a big day out, £30 is much less "special".

I also think, in response to @Gladiator 5076's comment about costs, that what I perceive as a fair price may owe very little to cost. It's about what I get for my money, and what else I have to shell out for on the day that will drive my perception of value. Therefore, a £50 return from Pickering to Whitby will, for me, be less value than a £30 ticket at the Little Snoring Railway that gives me half the mileage, but access to all trains and doesn't trigger a load of extra costs at the destination.

 

From memory, the price of a gift aided (12 month) ticket in 2023 started off at £40 but was rapidly upped to £45. Again, from memory, I think kids went free that year. I seem to remember a comment made that a teacher could take a coach full of schoolchildren by buying just the one ticket.

 

The minute that we switched from "personnel" to "human resource" was the time people in the workplace became no more valued that a photocopier.

 

• I think that if you're going to run 5 out of 7 days not running on 2 consecutive days makes a lot of sense. If you're going to be employing a lot of casual staff they will still expect a weekend even if it's mid week. In terms of maintenance both infrastructure and stock 48 hours will be a lot more productive than 2x 24. Thermal cycling on the locomotives will be reduced. I have no knowledge of the NYMR but I suppose it's a matter of balancing the savings against the costs rather than just not running on the two quietest days. I suspect that with the move to pre booking a lot will just move to a running day.

 

Perception is indeed critical. Gladiator 5076 may consider £49.50 to be an acceptable one but, up here in Gods own county where a pint of beer can be had for £4 (or less) and a decent 3 course meal for less than £35, it is expensive.

 

Agreed all perception. I find any restaurant or pub snack not worth the money, as food does very little for me (other than keep me alive).
Annoys Mrs Gladiator no end who likes food.

 

Yes that's right. I remember buying tickets expecting the £40 but being told the price I had been given had since changed but it was still relatively early in the season. And yes the kids went free.

With regard to pricing overall the NYMR should be considering where prices stand-up against other attractions in the area, and other steam railways more widely. Both represent areas where they might lose customers. In our case we try to pick our UK holidays on the basis of what attractions are near a base point, with a steam railway being a preference. If that steam railway is too expensive we simply spend less time there and do something else. I'm not saying they have to be dirt cheap, but in an area where you can get to Whitby, Scarborough or even York within a not ridiculous travel distance you have to be seen to be decent value. There's a lot of competition there all vying for your time and money.

If I'd known about the new pricing strategy early enough I'd have likely gone somewhere else altogether for the holiday. The beauty of this country is there are many railways to choose from and each one has its own character.

 

Having seen it tried both ways the thermic cycling argument is I think not significant on standard gauge engines. In fact I would go so far as to say that with a day out of use no warming fire is required and the loco without significant stress will be in steam within normal prep time. With two days out of use you will need a small warning fire the afternoon before.