SRPS Railtours 2025

I don’t disagree but if it’s not going to make money it’s easier not to run it. So they’re never going to price it anything but to make money.

 

Exactly. The acid test is how many seats sell.

 

Since 2019 of course there has been rampant (general) inflation as well as huge sector specific cost increases (coal). The tours with Flying Scotsman in 2019 were only possible because we attempted three trips in a day to help cover the costs, which is not something we would readily try again..! Costs for comparison, chucked into BoE base rate calculator:

• Std class adult: £99 (2019) / £125 (2025 actual) / £126.45 (BoE inflation calculator)
• Std class child: £75 / £75 / £95.79
• First class: £149 / £175 / £190.31

As Harry as pointed out, to operate steam on the mainline in Scotland we have to move a loco from the midlands, pay for TOC costs, incl. multiple nights hotel accommodation, a significant steaming fee per day before we even get to considering an internal charge for the coach hire - investment in the mk1 set since 2020 fast approaching £1.5m - or some profit for the SRPS. Comparable tours in the Midlands or London with Vintage Trains / RTC have, of course, the benefit of a very local depot with access to steam that doesn't involve several hundred mile light engine moves.

We've tried our best to control costs, as demonstrated above, but the reality is, if the tours don't sell, the coaches will be used for more events at Bo'ness where we have much greater control on the cost base and less on the mainline.

 

Sorry Harry, but it is extortionate, especially when you consider they're running the same tour twice in a day so they're getting two bites of the cherry. It's the SRPS set so there's no ECS move. The loco is up there for a period of time so the movement costs to and from Bo'ness can be spread over the five tours that it is working. The fares are the same as a full day tour, despite only lasting half a day.

I know they need to make money to recover the costs they've incurred with overhauls, CDL, etc, but they're essentially expecting to generate £250 per day for a standard class seat. It makes the £300 for the three day tour with the 20s to Kyle next month seem like an absolute bargain. It'll be interesting to see what the fares are for the Aberdeen trip later in the month.

 

Personally again I’ll have to disagree. VT Shakespeare is £70 for a 4 1/4 hour ride from Derby to Stratford. I’d say £125 for the above I comparable to that given VT won’t have to pay a steaming fee on their own Castle, they wont have the LE move from and to Crewe, and without wishing to cause any offence haven’t invested as much in to their stock over the years and doesn’t quite have the same feel inside them (I love VT btw and enjoy travelling with them).

I still think people forget ECS moves from Bo’ness to Edinburgh, LE moves for turning, etc all have to be costed in. It all costs track access

I think it’s reasonable myself. £25 an hour. Absolutely top quality loco. Decent route. Not shambolic.

 

On the flip side, their prices for private compartments for 6 are more reasonable. On VT's Mayflower tour in September, which is a full day tour, they're charging £1640 for 6 people in a compartment. For these SRPS shorter tours, 6 people in a compartment will cost £990.

 

Quite - and that's why I don't think the cost plus justification is valid. Either it's worth these fares, and will sell, or it's not - and won't

 

Sums it up perfectly.

I don’t know what the 60007 fee is to the exact pound, but I know it won’t be a cheap on. A recent document that was done for engineering at a few railways down our way showed locos should now be looking to earn £1400 per day to cover the wear and tear they occur for that steaming. 2 LE moves (Crewe-Scotland and return) plus the running say, plus the Aberdonian. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s near enough £6k for those fees if not more.

 

Back in 2014 when Duchess of Sutherland came up I spoke to an SRPS steward who told me that it cost just short of £8,000 to bring it up from Crewe on the Friday 12th September hauling a railtour which had diesel haulage southbound. It would then cost the same amount again to send it back to Crewe on a Light Engine move on the Monday 15th September. There is also of course the costs of running the 2 Forth Circles on the Sunday 14th September. With all that has happened since then the costs will only have risen. Ticket prices have always been more for steam than diesel to help balance the books.

 

Not disputing your financial numbers but I disagree with your premise that diesel tours are cheaper. They used to be, do not believe they are now.

For example RTC CME Class 86 and steam
Dining £325
First £225
Std £115

Pathfinder Diesel CME
Dining £315
First £199
Std £ 135

UK Railtours
London to Derby
First £229
Std £135

Admit that Intercity Tours appear cheaper but seem to have a bad rep on the diesel oriented forums due to the number of cancellations.

The loco be it steam or diesel will be a small part of the total cost with all the "suppliers" taking there share many of which will be fixed regardless of traction for example track access fees, or insurance.

 

Having read the discussion about ticket prices, it is worth pointing out that these tours are the best chance for enthusiasts to travel on the mainline behind Sir Nigel Gresley, or indeed any A4, for sometime past or future.

SNGLT actively supported the proposal to use 60007 on these tours, well aware that, without members and enthusiasts being able to travel on mainline steam, it will be difficult to inspire the next generation of supporters.

Enjoy the opportunity.

 

To be fair this wasn't a problem before you decided to work exclusively with one TOC.

 

It will be more like 6k-10k per day on the mainline.

 

I'll take your word for that as you seem to know the SRPS finances better than I do!

Could you remind me who the exclusive TOC is? In the last 6 months we've worked with LSL, GBRF, Rail Adventure and hired in mk1 carriages for use on the Bo'ness & Kinneil Railway from WCRC. Seems like good relations all around to me.

 

Quite probably. But that isn’t what was referring to. I was referring to the cost of the wear and tear per day, and that study showed a minimum of £1400 was needed.

However I fully concur that it will be much higher, and rightly so. These locos don’t pay for themselves.

 

I think he means SNG & LSL, at least that would be my take.

 

Obviously I have that wrong then! Apologies.

 

Numerous engines seem to be on only a single TOC's safety case these days, so any time a promoter goes for a certain engine will likely see themselves with one option for a TOC. Just a fact of life in the mainline steam railtour world post 2018 or so.

I think recently, only Bahamas (pre CDL hiccups) and Clan Line have regularly seen themselves between two TOC's. Happy to be shown further examples, but probably have to go pre Covid for those.

 

Can you please advise whether the Forth Circle and Aberdeen trains are planned to run diesel free?

If so, given the drought of unassisted steam tours in recent years this would surely banish the arguments regarding pricing.