North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

The NYMR is not unique in struggling with hmrcs interpretation of the gift aid legislation. Im aware of other heritage railways issues going back at least twenty five years. I think there has been at least one period when HMRC actually stopped all claims by heritage railways until they had been fully audited. I think that followed a situation where it was found that one railway was incorrectly claiming gift aid on Thomas the Tank engine events. I have been told by a legal professional that the schemes approved by HMRC vary from railway to railway according to the different tax offices. I fondly (not) recall in the pre computer age sorting and checking thousands of pink cards on the front room floor of my flat in Littlehampton.

 

Is it correct to say the basis of a recent substantial grant was to increase passenger numbers? How does this square with taking fewer people for higher prices?

 

Grants are intended typically to help secure a charity's financial viability and , yes, to encourage more people from more diverse communities to benefit from its activities. Howver, encouraging more passengers at low fares that increase operating losses defeats the core purpose of the grant. There may well be a developing trend, in response to ever increasing operating costs, of increased visitor numbers but not necessarily of paying passengers. A visitor to the education coach at Goathland, to the MPD, or just watching on Pickering station, is still able to experience some of the grant assisted public benefit provided by the NYMR even if they don't travel on its trains.

 

Mad Alice's Ghost Train | North Yorkshire Moors Railway - NYMR

New event for the autumn.........

However zero mention anywhere that I can find for the September Steam Gala?

Other lines are starting to announce visiting locos.........

 

Annual Steam Gala at the North Yorkshire Moors Railway

As if by magic

 

An interesting observation. I have said before I think the HRA could do something useful here in advertising all HRs, but that on its own isn’t enough. There are huge swathes of people out there who don’t even know it’s possible to ride behind a steam engine in Britain, and similar swathes that don’t see it being for them. We have to try innovative things to drag them in. This is clearly the Bluebell strategy, but from the sound of it not compatible with the NYMR - you were saying that the railway really could only survive by hauling people to Whitby? And yet, it has to be, because you need the visitor numbers.

 

No, obviously I failed to make my point clear. Offering a traditional train service, steam or otherwise, is unlikely to attract sufficient numbers of the core group who don't know its possible, don't see it as being for them and possibly the largest group of all who just aren't interested. For much of that group price is not the key issue. It's finding other reasons to attract them. Those may be popular character days, vintage vehicle displays, beer festivals etc and the even the traditional 40's event. The key is enticing them to visit for reasons that may have nothing to do with railway heritage but, having opened their eyes to the delights of heritage railways for the "Wrong " reasons make sure that they have such a good time they come back for the "Right" ones. The challenge for a railway that now depends on hauling people to Whitby is how do you create those special attractions, which can sometimes require investment, without abstracting revenue because passengers who might otherwise have paid the full Gift Aided Whitby fare opt instead for the non Gift Aided shorter journey fares to view the attrrcation/special event?

 

That’s what I thought you were suggesting was the problem. What it points to I think is that you need to view your pricing model as a work in progress. It looks to me (and I have some relevant experience) that it still needs work, and that you will be back negotiating with HMRC at some appropriate point. Strategically I think it is important that the railway begins to think about what a future with less reliance on Whitby looks like, and how to get there and/or an examination of what options there may be for addressing some of the issues Whitby gives.

 

Absolutely!

 

It's an interesting point about being worried about people downgrading to a possible non Gift Aid ticket. I'm seeing it from the other point of view though that the price of the only Gift Aid option is simply too high. If there was another option we'd have travelled when we were in the area, and likely more than once which would have been a net gain regardless of any gift aid. As it was we didn't at all because £99 per day was simply too much.

The Worth Valley is my local railway to which we have a family membership. That gives us three (yes you read that right!) 'free' rover tickets for the whole family per year for the membership price of £70. Once they are used we then get 50% off any further tickets outside of particular events. Bearing in mind it renews in Feb each year, we have already used the freebies and are booked on other events they are running, some at full price. So in this example the membership hooked us, and we spend more at other events.

Now I'm not suggesting the NYMR can afford to run that many free tickets for a membership, but there needs to be cheaper options that whats currently there to bring people in. Whether that's an internal rover or being prepared happy to push the shorter trips. Those are likely sales that would be lost otherwise.

In my mind the railway needs the cheaper options to hook people, and then the more expensive options for the Whitby travellers. I don't see the people who want to travel to Whitby stopping because of another event or cheaper ticket. I see the other event/cheaper ticket as an extra day on the railway.

But all said, you should have the data from all the years the internal rover was an option. I'd place a wager there aren't many people buying full rover tickets now who aren't going to Whitby.

 

I do regard the Bluebell the leader in the diverse events field. But even then they are not running in profit the past two years.
Funnily enough my wife was chatting to one of the Purbeck Art Weeks exhibitors this afternoon. This is the biggest art event of the year down here, and most apparently are saying how bad it has been this year. Of course spending money on art will not be high on people's list during a cost of living crisis. Generally trading conditions do seem tough across a lot of sectors.

 

I don't know what the NYMR's customer profile is in terms of age groups. If you were looking to attract families with young children, they may welcome short-duration low-cost options, such as Pickering-Levisham return or Whitby-Grosmont return. I accept those options may not fit into the railway's wider scheme of things.

In principle, a shorter operating line would allow infrastructure savings. But most of the UK's longer heritage railways seem to attract the bulk of their passengers to start from one end of the line (Kidderminster, Bishops Lydeard, Cheltenham, etc) with the preferred destination at the other end, and also the main operating base and maintenance facilities remote from the passenger start-point. Hence lots of tidal flows with some ECS or near empty trains to balance the service. The WSR in particular seems to me to be a bit too long, but ideas to shorten the line just don't work. However, I think that recent cost escalations will put the dampers on some thoughts of further expansion, such as Broadway to Honeybourne.

 

Well the HRA have tried their best over the years, with publicity articles etc, stands at trade shows (inc travel trade shows), and of course their website at http://www.heritagerailways.com/ (although it's gone downhill since 2011 )
and I've been doing my best with my independent website (latest incarnation of which has been on line since 2011 ).
https://www.heritage-railways.com/

Fact is the only people who are likely to notice such things are those who already have at least a slight interest. Most people have a blinkered approach to life, they just shut out anything they are not interested in). Many a time while doing foot crossing duty at Oswestry, people (presumably locals) say 'oh, we didn't know you were running trains'. We've been doing so every Sat, Sun and most Wed for about 8 months for the last couple of years. These locals are likely using the crossing several times a week (it connects a large housing estate to the local supermarket and town center) but. . . .

 

I read somewhere the other day that the visiting 37 has been failed with a faulty vacuum ejector which could keep it out of the gala.

Someone then suggested they weren’t sure it had worked a vacuum braked train in nearly 4 years.
Can anybody clarify whether this is accurate?

 

I notice the ticket prices, level of service, diesel use etc. is beginning to rear its head on the SVR thread

 

Yesterday I saw a grey class 37 inside the deviation shed at Grosmont. It looks like they are do some repairs.

Edit: it was 37688

 

Rumours of 37418 coming today to replace 37688.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:86490/2025-06-11/detailed

 

Well, I've just had a look at the railway's TripAdvisor reviews for May. If I were in the marketing dept. I would be reviewing what is on offer.

 

Where?

 

https://www.national-preservation.c...-news-discussions.19520/page-162#post-2934800