Which railways will still be with us in 10 years?

Following previous postings on this topic, someone I know has visited "Railway X" in the south of England recently. The picture it gave him was one of extreme fragmentation of effort.

There were collecting boxes on behalf of myriad various groups, each with their various agendas. There were locomotive groups, rolling stock groups, building groups and groups dealing with civil engineering. How there could be any effective prioritising of effort was unclear to him.

It seemed to him there was an urgent need to work towards absorbing these groups into the collective umbrella organisation before their individual membership got too old. This strikes me as a srnsible means of addressing the future.

Incidentally, what promises to be an interesting Conference on these matters is to be held in association with the Welshpool & Llanfair (itself already a unified organisation) late this summer.

 

You make a reasonable point here. I must say that it often appears this way on preserved lines. However if you look a little closer these groups are often closely aligned to what would have been the various railway departments in the days before closure. It's true they all have fund raising efforts of their own, often because they have more pairs of hands than money. Usually there are one or more umberella structures in the railway which draw it all together. On top of this there are always special interest groups (such as those formed to restore a loco for example) which often have facilities on a preserved railway. This can lead to the myriad of collecting tins that you mention.
That said, preserved railways relying largely on free labour are not commercial organisations and I think it's unlikely that they can ever be run along exactly the same lines however nice that thought might be. It's a personal bugbear of mine when I see inefficiency on "my" railway but I keep reminding myself that it's my hobby, not my job and I refuse to criticise those who take on the management roles for this reason. Most preserved lines run on the "any help most welcome" principle and this can lead to apparently odd priorities on occasions but most people will rally round to address issues which woud stop the railway operating, and there is far less demarkation when this happens than there would be in a commercial organisation.

 

I think that the lines which continue to evolve, progess and develop will continue to survive, a lot of lines appear to now be realising that the general public usually want more than a train ride when going to a Heritage Line and the ones which have more on offer will survive!

Lots of lines have been slowly adding things and evolving their railway such as the SVR & NYMR which spirng to mind others are planning large works for improvement such as the SDR and WSR, and others such as the PDSR see happy to stay as they are. Not wanting to start another argument but maybe those figures quoted long ago by that chap complaining had a point!!

 

I don't think it is quite true Kelvin to say the P&DSR wish to stay as they are. As you know - you were there - the second Heritage Weekend was highly successful and you have only to look at the Special Charters for 2009 (both boat and train - and one should not be separated from the other) to see that even in times of recession the Company is making strong efforts to expand the reasons for people to use their facilities/services. These events are as much for local people as visitors and perusal will show that they are very much up-market attraction.

 

Shouldn't a preserved railway's aim be to stay very much as it is once they have successfully restored whatever length of line they were set up to do and got enough space to keep most of their stock under cover and with proper maintenance facilities?

Of course there is a lot to do, even on the long established lines, to reach that state of nirvana. However, at some point attention has to shift from new projects to keeping what you have in good order.

I would have thought prudent financial management is the key, in particular making sure there are plans for renewal of track, locos, rolling stock etc (in the last category those who are relying on rusting Mk1's without a proper plan for major repairs may have a lot to think about in the not to far disant future). Bridges. tunnels and viaducts must be a cause of concern for some lines too.

 

It wasn't meant as it appears to have sounded I was just meaning other lines are continuing to grow and expand and move forward and add extra attractions etc to give visitors a better "all round Experience", whereas as far as I'm aware whilst the PDSR have added locos, stock and buildings etc and planned coach sheds and renovations at Paignton, apart from when they run the heritage festivals there is little else to do at the PDSR other than go for a train ride and most lines seem to have gone away from this idea and have extra attractions which keep you around for most of the day.

If you take the SDR for example as I know it quite well, you have things to do at both ends of the line with the Playground, Miniature Railway, Otter Sanctuary and maze among others at Buckfastleigh and the Rare Breeds at Totnes, the General Public which keep the line going tend to stay on site longer and therefore spend more!

 

Most people, locals and visitors who travel on the P&DSR to Kingswear go on to Dartmouth using the Company owned Ferry boat. Dartmouth is a tremendous attraction and has a lovely town with a great history. It is also a difficult place to reach and park during the sumer holiday season hence the popularity of traveling there from Torbay by the P&DSR. There are also boat trips, many of which are operated by the Company, which brings in more revenue. This, coupled with a highly scenic train ride and the currently well patronized trains bodes well for the future. Of interest 5239 Goliath was hauling eight well filled cars today.

 

Yes but once in Dartmouth or even Paignton they are no longer spending their money on the railway, which in my opinion is one of the PDSR's failings but then again it would be difficult to create extra attrations witihin the space you have.

 

Hear, hear! The railways that will survive long term are the ones that get this very difficult balance right. One or two (such as the P&D) can run as normal commercial businesses, but the rest cannot survive without a large volunteer workforce. Just as it is important that your passengers come back again, so it is essential that your volunteers do, week after week, rain or shine.

 

The latest railway reported as having recorded a thumping great loss is the NYMR with a deficit in excess of £300k. Whether this takes into account the major bridge renewal works being faced is uncertain.

 

Although I am not involved with the NYMR so am not privy to the accounts, my understanding of what has been reported is that the railway made an operating loss in excess of £300k, although other trading activity and income reduced the actual loss figure to more in the region of £70-80k. I may of course be wrong though.

Perhaps someone from the railway may be able to clarify, as certainly the HR headline may be seen as potentially misleading if this is the case.

 

[quote="Stewie Griffin
Although I am not involved with the NYMR so am not privy to the accounts, my understanding of what has been reported is that the railway made an operating loss in excess of £300k, although other trading activity and income reduced the actual loss figure to more in the region of £70-80k. I may of course be wrong though.]

This shows how ancillary trading can make a great difference but if the railway is just too expensive to operate then it cannot work miracles! There is, believe it or not, at least one heritage railway where the ancillary trading arm makes a loss as well

 

[/quote][/quote]

There is also a heritage railway where the PROFIT from ancillary trading is MORE than the GROSS INCOME from the booking office. So yes it is vital to take every pound that you can from visitors whilst at your railway.

 

Fifteen pages on this thread, so I do not intend to read them over again.

But, purely from memory, I can't recall much reference to the Lottery handouts which many Heritage lines have received in the past. I have the impression, as we approach the Olympic Games in this country in 2012, that Heritage lines will be lower down the pecking order. So there will be more necessity for them to raise their own working capital by whatever means they can.

 

"Pray for Paris to get the Olympics" were the words to me of a very senior Civil Servant with a strong involvement in steam preservation!

Paul H

 

This announcement was made to staff at Wharf and Pendre and displayed on notice-boards at both locations.

The Board regrets to announce that as of today,
18th June, the post of General Manager has been
made redundant (subject to appeal). As a result
Larry Bridges has unfortunately left the Company's employment.

This action has been taken in view of the serious
ongoing financial position in which the railway
finds itself, as highlighted in the Notice of
20th March. It was stated then that given the
worsening economic climate, there was great
uncertainty and concern over the potential
trading performance of the railway company in
2009 and 2010 and hence its continuing financial
sustainability. The Notice went on to say that,
with Council's full support, given at its meeting
on 7th March, the Board would need to consider
possible options for any re-organisation that
might be necessary, and that further
announcements would be made as decisions were taken.

A re-organisation of the catering department has
since taken place which will result in cost
savings hopefully leading to consistent
profitability. However, cost saving measures
elsewhere had to be considered concurrently. At
its meeting on 30th May, Council reiterated its
support for the Board to continue to take what
actions it saw necessary to ensure acceptable
financial performance in this year and beyond.

The draft accounts for 2008 which were produced
by the end of March, showed that the railway
again had a very disappointing year suffering
another near £100,000 loss. The impact of the
continuing very poor financial performance is
that cash reserves are dangerously low. Indeed if
it were not for long-standing members' loans and
loans from Talyllyn Holdings the railway would
have been close to running out of cash in the
early part of this season. Holdings was able to
make its loan because of an exceptionally
generous legacy received in the latter part of last year.

The Board's overriding concern is that should
2009 prove to be another difficult year with
continuing falls in revenue then there is a very
strong likelihood that the railway would run out
of cash or have to resort to external borrowing
in the Spring of 2010. Figures up to 12th June
show that combined revenues from ticket sales,
the car park, the shop and catering are down on
the same date last year by 0.6% despite a further
fare increase. On this basis our experience so
far in 2009 must now be regarded as an
increasingly reliable indicator of the eventual
outcome for 2009, following the very poor trading year in 2008.

Despite the savings made in 2008, the impact of
which will only be seen in 2009, it is clear
that, if revenue does not hold up, the losses in
2009 will again be large with the resulting
impact on cash discussed above. This is why
further action has had to be taken so that
sufficient savings are made early enough in the
year to ensure, as far as practicable, that the
results for the year are within acceptable
parameters, and cash reserves are adequate.

Until March 2007 the Railway had operated
successfully for nearly 15 years without a
General Manager, with volunteer Managing
Directors fulfilling the Chief Executive role.
This is why the Board has decided to revert to
that structure for the time being. The previous
MD, David Mitchell, has volunteered to step back
into the role, albeit on a part-time basis, to be
supported, particularly in his absence, by the
Engineering Manager, Dave Scotson, who will act
as Officer in Charge and provide an ongoing
presence. The situation will be closely and
continuously monitored and reviewed during the
rest of this season and throughout 2010.

The Board is under no illusions that, to many,
this announcement will come as a great shock. We
would ask those who feel that way for
understanding, and to appreciate the
circumstances which the railway faces. We must
all work together and support each other as we have always done.

This position is most regrettable but has been
brought about by the exceptional times in which
we found ourselves. The railway company had no
option but to act responsibly by responding to
this challenge - the TR has survived through hard
times before by keeping the scale of its
activities appropriate to the external climate
and is determined that it will do so again.

The Board would like to thank Larry for all his
hard work and efforts since his appointment
through these recent difficult times.

Signed: Gareth Jones, Keith Theobald, Peter
Austin, John Smallwood, Richard Hope
18th June, 2009

What with this and the NYMR failing to have an adequate bridge repair program it kinda makes you think.

 

On what basis do you make that statement?

 

It is highly doubtful whether any tourist railway can boast the kind of reserves which would enable them to finance a £1 million bridge repair without some sort of special appeal.

However the main worry is the size of the deficits on the revenue side which are coming to light. These antedate the current economic recession and suggest there may have been something of a lack of urgency in addressing basic financial issues.

I do hope that the Talyllyn, the doyen of railway preservation, manages to get on top of the situation. Yet reversion to a management system which was in charge when the present problems were building up does seem a little puzzling.

 

So have theses railways got the same thing in commom then?,they both suffer from poor management who have wasted money over the years?.

Time to call a professional manager in who knows what he or she is doing.

Regards
Chris

 

!

I don't think that the NYMR has suffered from poor management particularly. How many other railways could find £650,000 for a bridge repair? Fortunately, the local funding bodies are well aware of the value of the railway to the local economy, and i'm sure that further assistance will be forthcoming. However, times are hard and I suspect that it was felt that a reminder of that value and the effect of its loss was necessary to prise open the public purse. The NYMR is, like virtually all heritage railways, undercapitalised and so has to finance capital expenditure largely from cash flow at a time when it has faced heavy demands on its resources for other projects such as the push to Whitby and at a time when energy bills have rocketed and income has faltered. Bear in mind, though, that of the quoted £335.000 loss over £200,000 was on paper, in the form of depreciation.

In a way, the NYMR is a victim of its own success. The amount of traffic it now carries, the length of railway it operates over and so forth is proving to be a severe strain, but the difficulties are being overcome and eventually a better railway will be the result.