North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

7 coaches -
2 TSO: 2 x 64 =128
2 TSO: 2 x 60 =120
1 Easy Access = 48
1 BKO = 39
1 RMB = 44
Total capacity = 128 + 120 + 48 + 39 + 44 = 379 seats

2 trains per day = 758 seats capacity/ day

 

That's a lot of empty seats, as things stand, and it's hard to see those services (being run for just £30 return) being much more than breakeven at best. And some people seem to think I was being unduly negative when I suggested this might happen! Let's hope that the Flying Scotsman services fare rather better - it really, really has to, but if what I've been told is correct a lot of the marketing relies on coach tour operators, and they don't ever pay full fares.

 

I see that glass as half full than half empty…. Looking at @47406’s figures against capacity it looks like that tomorrow’s (Thursday’s) train is at least 50% full, and that is before walk up passengers are included. Might not be as full as the later Flying Scotsman services, which looks to becoming sold out at approaching £60 a ticket, but to my mind the numbers still look healthy.

 

There are two publicly acknowledged steam locomotive celebrities. Flying Scotsman and Mallard. Nothing else has the same draw. The other A4s can piggy back off the Mallard aura to an extent, but not to the level of equaling Scotsman. Tornado is a distant third place runner in this race and falling behind now it has been few years since it was new and appeared on a very popular car show. Everything else is meh so far as the public is concerned. That’s the reality. The earning power of Tornado is roughly a quarter that of Flying Scotsman.

 

I just hope that you are right, but a source has told me that a lot of the ticket sales so far for Flying Scotsman have actually been made to coach tour operators on a "sale or return" basis - in the best case, where such operators can sell their seats, they are unlikely to be buying them at£60/seat; in the worst case, if they cannot sell them, they will be looking for a refund. I haven't heard whether that may be the case for Tornado as well, but one has also to look at overall figures for the whole visit to determine whether it was a success or not. Using it on the diner, for example, is unlikely to generated a substantial boost in loadings.

 

I think broadly you are right, though in a more limited context there are a few other locos that have "pulling power" (pun intended) amongst enthusiasts at least. The Bluebell did very well with 'Clan Line' a couple of years ago, I think on account of the following that loco has and the rarity of being able to get behind it at reasonable prices otherwise (tens of pounds rather than hundreds as you'd need to pay for one of its mainline trips). I don't think Tornado is in that league with enthusiasts and I suspect has a diminishing draw amongst the general public. Did the NYMR at least attempt to market it on the Paddington connection?

A worst case scenario says 528 free seats out of 758 available, or 230 sold. At £30 per head that means £6900 income for the day. Presumably some more tickets have been sold since, but the counter point is that also presumably not everyone is paying £30 (for example, coach parties). Ultimately we don't know the financials of things like hire fee and so on, but that feels like a pretty low number given that you've also got to cover transport costs of the loco to and from the railway, amortised over x days of running. Of course, it is possible that the hire rate has been pushed down by the need of the A1 Trust to secure work for the loco - we don't know.

I think even if you went super optimistic on your figures and reckoned the direct cost at - say - £1000 per day of coal, £1000 contribution to transport costs and £1000 of hire fees, you haven't contributed much back to cover the railway's fixed costs. I suspect at best all you can say is that, given the fixed costs have to be paid in any case, some money is better than no money provided you at least cover the direct costs. But you have to hope there was a big influx of ticket sales at the last minute and walk-ups.

Tom

 

I’m not sure what the NYMR’s overall strategy is with these Thursday and Friday specials. Back at the beginning of the year we were told that Thursday/Friday running was being abandoned to save costs.*. Fair enough as that would save manpower and costs of opening tea rooms, bookshops, signal boxes, control, early & late fitters, train crews and various other things. However now two return trips have been introduced which largely wipes out those savings yet they have lost the Whitby and other traffic which would have arguably contributed significantly more. Added to this, signalmen are required for what becomes a pretty boring day. Just four trains and no crossings to undertake. It also stops PW (and others) the chance to carry out maintenance without the hindrance of trains running, one of the reasons given for going to a 5 day week. I suspect that there is a bit of a thought process which says “we need money and we don’t make money unless we run trains. “ That’s very true but it’s missing the word ‘profitable’ before ‘trains’ and that has to include a lot more than the coal and hire fees, even if it is done purely on a marginal cost basis.

* I have been told by a good source that the real reason for going to a 5 day week is to reduce wear and tear on delicate infrastructure and pressure on such as the MPD to deliver and to hope that the railway will get through the year. Whether true or not I don’t know but I can believe it. I think the hire of Tornado is contributing to helping the MPD quite considerably in this respect. Just my opinion.

 

Given the short notice for the Tornado trips, will there actually be any coach parties? Companies like Blue Sky in Leeds generally advertise months in advance.

 

It's questions like this that leave the impression of the strategy being at the "make it up as we go along" end of the spectrum

 

Is there any of the station shops open tomorrow Friday 12th?
I cannot see any info on the main NYMR Webpage other than to the launch of a Virtual Store and stating that the Railway's General Manager is Chris Price.

 

Not forgetting also that Clan Line also has a bid following in the south, but I guess wouldn't be as big a draw elsewhere.

 

I'm at Pickering today, morning train was full, afternoon one not quite but well loaded. Also seen a bit of filming going on, railway going to be on channel 4 this time aparently.

 

Sorry I thought you were the one that was shouting for locos appropriate to the area, and lower fares being what the NYMR needed to generate demand, and thus have hordes flooding through the gates.

 

Pickering shop and cafe were open today, so I assume will be tomorrow.

 

In principle, I do favour the concepts that you mention, but its a considerable oversimplification for there are other considerations to factor in. Timing of the event is one: just after the peak season has ended, when kids have just returned to school and with a non-existent alternative service may well not help, for example. And, why set the first of two departures at 08.45am from Grosmont? Making it an hour later would enable far more people to get there by then. Adding to the event in other ways, such as an uprated and more adventurous buffet car service could actually make more money by ensuring that station cafes do not need to open (as there's unlikely to be much trade between trains)........

 

If only they had a rake of teaks to put behind tornado

 

Tornado departures are 10.30am and 1.30pm from Pickering. It is the next months FS departures from Grosmont that includes a 8.45am departure (the others being 11.40am and 3pm, and of which most dates look like to be already sold out).

 

For a 4-part series “Railway Diaries” to be aired before Christmas and featuring the staff, volunteers and visitors of the NYMR.

 

Quite.

 

It may be indicative of a certain desperation to raise cashflow. I am hesitant to be too critical though because in the face of problems managements that at least try to do something should deserve some support for that. Also I think that experiment is essential for the future of heritage railways. New commercial models are needed and all the old ones need a refresh. It would probably help though if the internal communications were better, because it might well carry more people along with the management.