North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Steve,
You're testing my technical understanding beyond its limits! I think it's to do with detection on the motor points at the south end with no facility for the New Bridge signalman to verify that they are safe to run over. As you say if Levisham is switched out all trains are routed through the Down Main. Perhaps someone better versed in the signalling technicalities might clarify?

 

Surely the detection is proved by the home signal being cleared? Seems an odd one to me. Did the old train staffs lock the frame and release the long section staff? Whatever, the facility for locking out the box appears to have gone.

 

The south end points at Levisham have been motorised since the early 80s and during the old style blue (one train) and green (two train) timetables the box would be switched out for days or weeks on end.
In the early days of the Pullman trains they operated on a midweek evening, diesel hauled between Pickering and Goathland only. Running round in the loop, we didn't see the station at Goathland at all on my 18th birthday trip. So not going all the way could save a box being manned.
The history of the diner is this, first few years volunteer operation until it grew to large, then contacted out catering first a private hotel until that business failed, then Scarborough council until their catering was outsourced in the 90s after which it's all been run in house.
If detection is the issue on the south end points could they be clamped?

Sawdust.

 

Is there a king lever allowing signals to be cleared im both directions? If not then the objection might partly be a need to regularly talk drivers past the signals and the inability to know when doing so that the turnout is secured in the right direction and locked. One suspects that in the past that was not perceived to be quite such a problem.

 

You certainly could clear the signals in both directions in the days of staff and ticket and I suspect that you still can. The difference now is that I don't think that there is a seperate long section (Goathland - New Bridge) token any more.

Looking to see if I had a picture of the signals cleared in both directions I came across this showing George and Eric on a double headed special to Pickering. The date is 15/9/75 - that's 50 years ago last Monday (and to think that I was firing Eric last Monday as well)

For clarification Black 5s 4767 is George and 5428 is Eric

Peter

 

As @torgormaig has said, you can/could clear the signals in both directions to allow the box to be closed. Not being a signalman and unfamiliar with the box, I'm not sure what the interlocking is/was like. I do know that you had to have both short section staffs in the frame and that allowed the long section staff to be withdrawn and used. When the long section staff was withdrawn, the short section staffs were locked in the frame until it was replaced.

 

As far as I know all the equipment required to switch Levisham out and run a New Bridge Goathland section is in situ. It's just that there isn't an approved safe operating procedure.

 

On the face of it that sounds like a relatively easy win, then. Or are volunteer signalmen available in such abundance that it's not really necessary?

 

Sounds to me like another "its all too difficult" excuse to me, and may not even be necessary. Surely there might be a bit more incentive to sell day rover tickets if they could be used again in the evening for a dining trip of sorts when the Pullman was running - doesn't have to be a Pullman-type diner- fish & chips or pie and peas type of menu, maybe even a bbq and bar at Levisham, with train stopping over there whilst the Pullman runs through and then it could return after. In the holiday season ~I would expect pretty good patronage, certainly enough to run a few trial trips to gauge the market; it wouldn't even have to be steam hauled! The NYMR needs to develop new ideas and markets, but keep them simple, i.e. no cooking on rains for example, as it really only has one kitchen car.

 

Fortunately there are committed volunteers willing to do things like a 400 mile round trip just to spend a full day signalling just two Tornado return trains!

 

At the K&ESR our Wealden Pullman Kitchen car is a modified Mk1 Restaurant Unclassified that we bought from the Bluebell. It was previously in use as HST Barrier Car.
It has been fitted with an open brake at one end with wide doors for disabled access and is also fitted with a 12.5 Kwh battery lifted from the super yacht industry. This powers all the normal carriage loads including the extraction fans and a commercial dishwasher, Pos systems etc.
The photo shows the state of the battery arriving back at Tenterden late at night after about 6 hours off the shore supply. If we want to stay out longer we can attach a shore supply at Bodiam. this means we normally run the dining train as 4 coaches as we have no need for a seperate brake or generator car. For charters we can add additional vehicles as required.

 

But - I would suggest - this is unlikely to be a long term good idea for retention and recruitment.

 

You will find that was John aka @Lineisclear who travelled to man the Levisham signal box on one of the days when Tornado was making one of its two return trains.

 

But are there enough? Or just you?

 

I hope that they don't drive 400 miles and do "a full day signalling" all in the same day. That is not the sort of volunteering that the railway needs especially when safety critical work is involved.

Peter

 

Agreed Peter. I think there have been some pretty hairy examples in the past but the maximum door to door time of 14 hours seems to be observed.

 

While your dedication can't be faulted, is it not the case that frequently those in positions of responsibility often take the less attractive turns, partly to "show willing" and perhaps more pertinently that they realise the buck stops with them when few others wish to volunteer? For many years our (former) shedmaster was almost invariably the New Year's Day driver because no-one else wanted the turn!

You have frequently made the point that a charity doesn't exist for the benefit of its members. While in a narrow legal sense that is true, there has to be a benefit for members - and volunteers - since if there wasn't, why would anyone choose to join, or volunteer? So there has to be some red meat that goes beyond running the minimum level of service, or the most utilitarian rolling stock, since without that red meat, there is little incentive for anyone to volunteer. And that, needless to say, is ultimately not in the best interests of the charity either.

Go too far down the line of cutting the service to the bare profitable minimum and you may, in the short term, find yourself doing an awful lot of 400 mile round trips to signal a single train or two; and in the longer term may find you no longer have a charity because no-one wishes to support a bare-bones operation. At which point at least you will have the leisure time to rue the fact that maybe you should have taken a more holistic, less legalistic, view of what would actually have been in the best interests of the former charity of which you were once a trustee!

Tom

 

Tom, you're absolutely right that without the red meat there is little incentive to get involved whether as a member or volunteer. Of course that can lead to the conclusion suggested by Steve on numerous occasions that the purpose of a heritage railway is to allow volunteers to enjoy their hobby. There has to be a level of activity that makes volunteering enjoyable even if that is economically sub optimal. Where I disagree is the conclusion that if members and volunteers aren’t motivated to support the NYMR it would inevitably close. Continued operation on a commercial employee dependent basis similar to the Paignton and Dartmouth may well be possible. This thread was focussed recently on signalling which provides a good example

 

Would the line be able to remain open on a purely commercial basis, though? It is not the same as P&DSR, it is twice as long and has the additional burden of running over the EVL to Whitby, with all the additional costs that entails in terms of staff and maintenance, and in the short term it has an increasing backlog of maintenance being accrued at present.

If it was to become a wholly commercial concern, would it still be able to support the numbers of staff that it currently does, particularly in the office staff? If it couldn't then surely they cannot be regarded as indispensable, and actually they could be let go now?

 

I suggest that’s flawed logic. If, heaven forbid, the NYMR was to become a purely commercial business it wouldn’t need the level of paid staff it has currently. That doesn’t mean they’re surplus now because they are necessary to enable a volunteer centric organisation to function. The reality that paid staff make it possible for volunteers to sustain the railway seems to be hard to grasp.