Northern Belle 2025

Showing as diesel timings (perhaps this one was never meant to be steam hauled)

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U61845/2025-09-13/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U61849/2025-09-13/detailed

Not sure what 34067 is doing instead this weekend.

 

Was originally advertised as steam, the “steam” had gone missing from the website when I checked earlier in the week but the steam paths were still on RTT. With the new paths it’s safe to assume that it won’t be steam hauled. 34067 is resting

 

Showing as diesel timings (although Northern Belle states steam hauled on the return from Carlisle)

Realtime Trains | 1Z70 0738 Telford Central to Carlisle | 20/09/2025

Realtime Trains | 1Z72 1509 Carlisle to Chester | 20/09/2025

Assume 34067 involved in RTC Realtime Trains | 1Z86 0638 London Euston to Carlisle | 20/09/2025 which was 86 hauled to Carlisle, now showing loco swap at Carnforth.

 

Just left Chester, 148 late, due to earlier track circuit failure.

 

It seems that WCRC have passed risk of not being steam hauled to their customers - me being one on yesterday's CME. Booking a trip behind steam is fraught with risk of not being steam - but here because they lack the capability to deal with failures and have backup options in play - loco FTR failures which are fully understandable btw, as is weather conditions. Meanwhile LSL at Crewe is brim-full of in-ticket locomotives of many types in many liveries.

Another option might be for RTC to contract with LSL?

Ironically, weather yesterday in the fells was the 180 degree opposite of drought conditions.

 

Depends what happens next weekend when WCR have three trains to operate. Need to watch RTT re the movements on the West Highland Line and at Southall!

 

Why would LSL want to supply locos and hence stock for RTC their main competitor? It would be like BA supplying Virgin aircraft if they ran into difficulties.
I think the term "brim-full of in-ticket locomotives of many types in many liveries" somewhat overstates the position bearing in mind their own Saphos and SD programmes needs., before you even get the the issue of support crew, catering etc.

 

Maybe yes - but business is business right? RTC are tied to a provider that can't provide a resilient service due to lack of suitable locomotives? It's not good business practice to pass all risks to your customer and hope that they don't vote with their feet.

From an in-coach debate on these lines on yesterday's rail-tour concluded that LSL have a lot more in-ticket options sat at or based from Crewe than WCRC have at Carnforth.

 

I believe LSL only have one set of Mk1's that are used on the Saphos and Steam Dreams railtours which wouldn't be enough to then take on RTC programme of tours as well as their own, they wouldn't be able to keep up!

Also as others had said, however much we'd like it to happen, LSL will never partner with RTC.

 

That's a shame and not IMO a good position to be in for RTC currently.

 

West Coast have at least 4 in ticket locos at Carnforth all capable of running RTC trains, but have made a business decision that enables them effectively useless.
They also cut ties with a locomotive owning group just 3 months into a multi year contract that could also have handled a significant chunk of RTC business.
There are many defenders of 10A on here who point to how they have over many years supplied and built up the mainline steam industry, but the flip side is that they are now pushing its rapid decline by not managing their assets and making decisions that significantly harm end users, including one of their biggest customers.
RTC need to seriously consider how they plan next year's programme and whether West Coast are actually capable of delivering it.
Incidentally I can currently access a significant discount with RTC, but I am not going to use it as there is a significant risk a steam loco will not be on the train and it will not run as advertised, the longer this goes on more people will do the same.
The situation is not RTC's fault currently who have clearly trusted West Coast's assurances this is only a 'temporary blip', but businesses need to adapt and have contingencies - this also applies to RTC. They can no longer rely on their principle supplier and this will harm their business. If they don't adapt and look for alternative suppliers then sympathy will no longer be there. It may have already gone for those less knowledgeable about the current railtour industry.
We can look to Crewe, but the lesson from Carnforth is there are many dangers in having eggs all in one basket. Personally I would be looking towards DB and the likes of Eastern Rail Services and Nemesis Rail who are creating charter rakes of Mk 3s. Yes its air con stock, but that is no different to the current West Coast offer. It would be compatible with Tornado, Flying Scotsman & Clan Line, all of whom are on DB's books. A couple of toe in the water trips would test viability and send a message that RTC are looking to adapt their model. Some of the repeat offers could then be handed over to DB and provide some guarantee of steam haulage to punters (likely unassisted too!!).

 

A good summary Alan.

I had a thoroughly good day yesterday and have no rub whatsoever with RTC. Luckily I quite like 37s but I wouldn't have booked on that basis otherwise.

I too won't be booking further tours based on the good-chance of not running as advertised with steam. There were allocated seats not taken on yesterday's train from some who didn't turn out so maybe I'm not alone.

 

Mods - feel free to move the above to the RTC thread as probably more appropriate there and a similar chat is ensuing!

 

Out of curiosity when was the last time Steam actually was at the head of a Northern Belle train?

I'm likely wrong but I haven't seen anything in ages when the steam actually was on the train as originally planned.

 

Post 123 of this thread gives a clue, I suspect.