Swanage Railway General Discussion

In terms of funds, any news on the Water tower project? I know it was stated it would save lots of money in the long run.

Push/Pull M7 would be stunning and could be used I'm sure during the low periods. While only two coaches you could in theory run an hourly service rather than 1h 20 service

 

Water tower project, good shout...................

 

I believe funds for the water tower project might be fully available now.
Drummond Locomotives Ltd do not have 'spare' thousands of pounds needed to fit push-pull equipment to 30053 however nice that may be.
Also, I don't believe Swanage Railway has spare funds either to equip a Maunsell Third Open with pipework as well as all pipework and controls for the Driving Brake coach - the latter [I suspect] having to be rebuilt totally from the solebar upwards and all the controls/gauges/etc. sourced/manufactured.
Incidentally, I wonder if ORR would permit this sort of operation now? It has not been in operation on BR since the early 1960s so it's most unlikely that any drivers/firemen/fitters trained in it's use are still alive to make today's footplate crews aware of the undoubted idiosyncrasies of the air-operated system.
Anyone know of a helpful multi-millionaire perhaps?
Finally, I wonder if an hourly low-season service you mention might be 'heroic' ? Journey time is 22 minutes each way. This leaves 8 minutes at each end for passengers to alight/board [some would need ramps placed for wheelchairs/prams/etc. and Guards can't always rely on Porters volunteering their time during much quieter periods]; Guards changing the points using the ground frames at each end of Norden's run-round loop; plus taking water at Swanage after every trip to Norden would have to be taken into account.
Although I've outlined just some of the 'problem' areas, there's nothing to stop you wishing for all the above of course.
Sorry to be a 'wet blanket', but keep hoping.

 

For a future heritage coach project Third Open 1457 has to be the obvious choice, sister coach 1456 on the Mid Hants looks great in malachite, would go nicely with the Olive!

 

Without understanding all the technical differences, from an ORR standpoint what would be different in operation i.e. push pull, to the 14xx and one or two autocoaches?

 

The principal behind push-pull working is the same of course.
However, I believe the GWR system uses mechanical linkages not air. Does the GWR arrangement still retain 'BR Grandfather Rights', so-to-speak, as I suspect Didcot was using theirs on the demonstration line before the ORR was established.
On the other hand, nothing using an air-operated system has been in service for over 60 years.
Whether this would affect ORR's view/opinion of an air operated system I have no idea. I presume that if a Safety Case for it was approved then everything would be OK - apart from the lack of money to carry out all the extensive work required in the first place.

 

I'd have thought it would be considerably simpler to just arrange for some brake controls to be in the propelling end of the carriages and have the guard there, the driver staying on the engine. Tried and tested with the ORR obviously happy with such an arrangement in plenty of places, you still recreate the look and functionality of a push-pull service without the hassle of reinstating an unknown system.

 

I seem to recall reading somewhere that if alternative workshop/storage could be obtained then the historic C&W team might well start on the extensive [read costly!] internal overhaul of 1457 Bulleid Open Second. I'm not sure how much, if any, seating/panelling/luggage racks/etc. are in stock for refurbishment or whether everything will have to be manufactured from new.
In any event, I think 4366 has priority on its return from Ramparts to Swanage Railway which I'm sure I heard might be before the year's end.

 

That’s a very practical approach but the question then becomes ‘Do you want to recreate a long lost method of operation rather than a modern equivalent?’ In this case it will need an inevitable risk assessment augmented by a more modern approach to the many ‘what if’s’ that would need to be considered. Provided the risk assessment doesn’t throw up any real negatives then I don’t see why such a system should not be implemented. The ORR won’t approve but they may be willing to offer an informal opinion.

 

I suppose that's true but would guess it requires 'specialist' training for Guards, for the extra responsibilities, wishing to enter a push-pull link.
Do these other places you refer to, have the Driver undertaking all the braking with 'specialist' Guards there to sound a warning device of some sort [haven't heard of a vacuum powered whistle/siren] as well as an emergency brake valve? Also, do any of these places stop at four stations over a 5 1/2 mile route?
No doubt some sort of communication between Guard and Footplate is necessary but as Swanage Railway use radios already that aspect should be OK.

 

We operate that way from time to time on the Bluebell - normally propelling one coach but in the past we have propelled two. Stopping in normal circumstances remains the role of the driver, the guard has a brake but only for emergency use. We have four stations.

I can’t help thinking though that all this conversation about operations is quite premature. First restore your carriages, which is probably a twenty year endeavour …

Tom

 

I think the intention with the push pull set is to restore the carriages as hauled coaches. Giving the visual impression of a push pull set even if they can’t be used in that way.

Adding any push pull equipment is something that may come later if a suitable system can be devised and funds raised.

 

Propelling in this way is an accepted means of operation by the ORR and has been done on many heritage railways where extensions are in progress. However, this is only generally done where no run round loop is available to allow haulage of the train. The system is obviously considered to be safe as it wouldn’t be allowed although obviously less safe than having the driver up front with access to all the controls (brake, regulator and whistle). The argument becomes more one of ‘is it necessary or is it simply something you want to do?’ If it’s the latter it becomes harder to justify doing it.

 

Would be good to have a push pull steam train to run to the River Frome bridge (if the chance of reopening services to and from Wareham is not feasable. But although the Maunsell BCK Push/Pull 6699 carriage is in a safe covered farm shed, and might be safe from the body deterioration that happened to 6697, needs a lot of work and fundraising to get it operational.

However it is possible to run to the River Frome bridge using top and tail locos on existing stock during galas, but will not match how the branch line trains ran, which some enthusiasts might pay a bit extra for?

 

That last line is a bit "Field of Dreams" The question would be for all the cost of achieving it how many and how often would these enthusiasts pay the extra (whatever that may be). It could end up like the Railmotor initial interest that seemed to wain.
Your Wareham comment steam is never going to be feasible unless you have mainline approved locos and stock, and hire a TOC or become one yourself. Get yourself the max Euro Millions win and it may happen

 

Considered simply, operating in that way is either safe or unsafe. If it's unsafe, what difference does it make if it is necessary or it is merely desirable? Either way, it shouldn't be done.

Considered a little more realistically, it's not 'either safe or unsafe' - it's almost certainly 'somewhat more unsafe' (but I have no idea how much). Anyway, in the 'necessary' case, one winds up with a cost/benefit question (increased risk, versus providing the service at all), and I have no idea how that would/should be decided.

Noel

 

True, next chance for a trip to the River Frome bridge will be either one of the 2026 diesel or steam galas, dates to be confirmed, or the next Swanage Belle railtour (also dates tbc).
However the 4TC (3TC plus 33111) push pull train is likely (but not confirmed) for 2026, a steam push pull train on the Swanage railway may take a few years (unless they get a visiting autocoach one for a steam gala)

 

Given the view forward from a lot of steam loco's I would have thought that from that point of view at least that an auto train was no more dangerous than a loco hauled one and possibly safer

 

Operationally, the rule book (Rumpole assistance please) does cover this sort of operation, i.e Propelling moves. With the M7 on the country end with 6699 and a TO in between I can see this working via radio, although speed would be restricted. Remember we used to propel to pole 44 in the late 1980's and certainly had 6699 for photo charters with 1381.

 

I too would very much like to see a push pull/M7 combination, However I am not sure that the method that BR, SR used would meet with ORR approval.
When I was a guard at Eastleigh, we had several drivers, some local and others that had transferred from the West Country who had been involved with push pull operation and they all said that it never worked properly. Trains had to be crewed with Driver and a "Passed" Fireman, the latter when the loco was propelling had to drive from the M7, I think there was bell communication and certainly the driver had control of the train brake, so not very successful.
I think the best that we can hope for is the 3TC which I believe that DTC 76275 has or is shortly going to Ramparts at Derby for repainting and any other work that has to be done.