Castle Over Shap - Sat 20 Jun

No 7
Thanks again for your input.
The MP13-Mp37.25 should just about get it into the top 10 since preservation.The return from Carlisle to Shap Summit will definatly but is usually adjusted from your figure depending on what coach you were in because of the standing start.Just goes to show how difficult it is to get a clear shot up the Hill from Carlisle together with a good engine and keen crew.Well done again Tyseley.
Kent Yetti.
You will have to wait a bit for your EDBHP/IHP figures.Doug is the man and he will need a full quarter mile log to do that. Was anyone on the Sole St job that did a full 1/4 mile log?

 

Treat this with some caution because the EDHP figures I generally calculate are usually somewhat higher than figures I see Mike Notely publish, and also from Doug Llandau. However on Shap I get something like 1300-1400HP on the lower part of the 1 in 75, with a clear increase at MP35.75 to something over 1600HP. This would seam reasonable as it might well be around this point that cut-off was lengthened to 33% as Bob describes; the decline in speed is reduced from about 2.5mph per quarter mile to about 1.5mph per quarter mile. The HP then decays towards 1400 as speed reduces towards the summit. I don’t have power vs. speed curves for constant cut off curves for a Castle to hand but the trend seems reasonable. As I say the absolute values might well be a little high based on previous experience but nevertheless very much the top end.

I make the tare weight 352 tons.

 

The whole deal - locomotive, crews, performance - all truly magnificent! Thank you =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

 

Hi,

I know Bill is good having worked with him, but all of the plaudits should really go to the fireman. Obviously you need a good driver who knows the road, but to fire a Castle and produce that sort of performance is superb. Ands this is from cold at Carnforth, with only 2 short downhill sections between there and Low Gill. Not sure who it was but it probably wasn't an ex 12A or 12B man. This in my view is why this time the GW performed on this occasion where as before men used to working Black Fives and Duchesses have been asked to do the job.

Back at Kingmoor on Wednesday and will be able to fight off the usual astmatic locos jibes.

Well done to all concerned. Churchward you were a genius!

cheerio

Mike

 

Here are some stats for 46115's southbound Scot over Shap run on 9th May, quoted from a post made on here in the days afterwards.

So the Castle was just 26-27 secs slower going south, with a slightly lighter load (cf. that hauled by 60532 on its all-time best run).

Mind you, the Scot's crew were probably a bit hypermotivated that afternoon, as they had started their earlier northbound tilt at Shap in magnificent fashion, going through Tebay at "75 mph" (ahem!), but had run into a monsoon on the top half, when wheelslips brought their summit speed down to only 33 mph. A wee bit frustrating for them, perhaps. A month earlier, on GB2, 46115's northbound summit speed was given as 44 mph, and if you haven't seen all the GB2 videos from Shap, especially the one shot from east of the line, make sure to look them up. OMG! will be your reaction.

Let's just say that if Scots Guardsman is THE beast, EOME sure ain't no pussycat either.

BTW, reminders of just what a greyhound 60532 used to be makes we wish that someone would pay for her to be returned to mainline condition.

 

Mike,

The fireman was a young man by the name of Alastair Meanley. Whilst many of you have been kind enough to offer me congratulations on 5043, much of them should really go to Alastair who has given a very great deal of love, care, and considerable skill into bringing this locomotive back from the dead over a period of some 15 years, and has in fact had the day to day oversight of the project for the last 8 or 9 years. All of the day to day tinkering that has been done to bring the engine up to its current pitch has been done by Alastair, and I have to say that I am very proud of what he has actually achieved with 5043. As you say definitely not a 12B man, very much a 21st century TYS man who has a very great empathy with the engine, as Saturday proved.

Whilst on the subject of thanks, we have been very grateful for the number of you who have inundated us with photos of the event during the course of today, it is much appreciated.

regards
Bob

 

Bob,

Thanks for those words. He did a fine fine job! Proving beyond doubt that having an undestanding of the machine and its nuances is really all that counts when getting the best from a steam loco. The coal was probably the right stuff too!!

Theres nothing wrong with 12A or 12B men its just well how do you put it 'GW engines need a certain something to work properly' , even the legendary Paul Kane would need many many hours on a GW engine, not the odd trip here and there to get it to work to its full potential.

To some extent Bills job was made very very easy. Presumably he used similar cut offs to what he would normally use or was he given a gentle nudge to do it a bit differently? As a driver speaking its getting trains to stop in the right place thats the art not getting them to go.(having a total understanding of cut offs, steam and the road as Bill obviously has notwithstanding).

Interesting that a nice light fire has been mentioned on this thread for the trip north if indeed that is the truth. Very different from putting a back end in the size of a big sofa.

Obviously there will be now lots of talk of the Midland needs to be done etc etc. In my view Carlisle to Shap summit form a steam point of view is just as difficult. Am I right in thinking that 2 of the fastest times now belong to Swindon machines!!! So if people think this engine is going to get found out over the long drag then I think they will be very much mistaken.

I dare say the castle and the scot are now performing better than they did under BR, they are both truly superb machines. But it is the castle that has changed peoples perceptions. We will now not be considered a bunch of crack pots who prefer beauty over performance, we have both and the knowledge that our guys sussed it in the first place.

Now for the Scot over the south devon banks with a Carlisle man on the shovel =D>

cheerio

Mike

 

At the risk of being rapped over the knuckles tomorrow morning for getting it wrong, I think that this one made four, including the Leander one 2 or 3 years ago.

 

Mike

in answer to your queries the coal was a mixture, that loaded on at TYS was Daw Mill but we took a couple of buckets at the Carnforth water stop which were Killoch I believe and this would undoubtedly be what was going into the firebox over Shap. both were perfectly good coals, giving very little clinker, although we are finding that the draught is so fierce on 5043 that it appears to be taking a lot of the ash away, and not forming much clinker, so far the grate certainly seems to accumulate very little, but we have only done something just over 2000 miles with it.

Joking apart we have had some good times with 12 district men over the years and strange to say we had Paul K to come and do a job with Rood Ashton a couple of years ago. After a few minutes chat on the characteristics of GW engines, he drove it like he had been on the Western for years and made a superb job of it.

The fire used was not really any differnet to how we would normally fire it, neither heavy or light, just up to the door ring, level for about 3 feet forward then dropping to the front. It then becomes a case of gently guiding most shovels just over the front of the hump, keep the back up from time to time and an occasional few up the front. It's just that with ten coaches and a bit of a hill, firing becomes a bit more frequent to say the least and it will burn coal! There is certainly no real need with it to have the coal coming out of the hole when you open the door. There is absolutely no doubt that the redraughting of these engines moved them up a league from their Single chimney brothers, although a good one of those could be a flier.

I think you are correct in saying that Swindon has two of the good runs from Carlisle to Shap under its belt, which is actually 2 results out of only two visits if you discount various forays over there by miscellaneous Halls. It is a bit of a nonsense to say that certain types of engine do not have staying power as any engine will have a specific constant steam rate, and it should be obvious from previous results that the Castles have a fairly good rate of constant evaporation that will hold for as long as the fireman can shovel coal to match, or until the fire gets too dirty. It is probably true to say that there are a number of locos which are working better than they did in BR days for a number of reasons, but it would prove very interesting to take a Scot to Devon.

Bob

 

These last few pages have demonstrated why this forum is such an interesting and fulfilling place to visit. This really does sound like an epic run and in the hands of a new generation of fireman and a true steam man as well. It is really positive that someone like Alaistair can come through the preservation ranks and produce a performance so perfect as what has been described here, be in no doubt that people who fired every day over Shap 40 or 50 years ago would of struggled to replicate the quality of Saturday's run. It is brilliant to finally read a truly good news story amongst the bickering and politics.
On the subject of a Scot to Devon; yes please and when can I book?

 

Because they were too knackered after firing over Shap on a daily basis on locomotives held together with minimum maintainence?

 

One point of note is that the track is much better now. Continuously welded track was just arriving in the late 50’s and that alone makes a difference to the rolling resistance, the more axels the larger the effect.

That said exceptional times could be posted 40 - 50 years ago. In 1967 4498 ‘Sir Nigel Gresley’ posted a time of circa 5min 50sec for what we now use as the ‘trials’ section of Shap. At the time that was exceptional for a load of 11 but shows it could be done. Clearly quite a few engines have now gone faster but the vast majority of climbs in preservation are over 6 minutes.

Also some of the heavy weight trains we now see on Shap would probably have taken the banker from Tebay. I think it’s a fair comment that the condition of most locos in the 1950’s and 1960’s wasn’t as good as today and further trains were then generally run to time, why rush up Shap when all that is needed is a measured effort? Of course many, many trains ran over Shap and only a tiny proportion had a timer on board who recorded the run for posterity. That said I suspect that a driver knowing Mr Allen, Mr Nock or alike was on board would put in a bit of extra effort. Today every run is an event and crews are more inclined to provide entertainment for those on board – and we greatly appreciate that!

 

I was born and brought up in Swindon, but now live in retirement in southern France. However, the prospect of one of Swindon's finest tackling Shap proved irresistable and I flew back for the occasion. And I wasn't disappointed! A great performance.

For a couple of years in the late fifties, I worked in the A Shop office in Swindon Railway Works. A not too onerous work load and the fact that the weigh table was just beneath our office window enabled me to spend quite a lot of time chattering to the Trials Inspector and the Loco crew who were sent down from Swindon Running Shed to drive the newly overhauled locos. Inevitably, the conversation would get round to the merits of various classes. They were all lukewarm regarding 'Kings' but eulogised at length about the 'Castles'. However it was for the 'Saints' they reserved there 'best ever' plaudits. By then the 'Saints' had disappeared into history, but some of the drivers could become misty eyed when recounting their experiences with this class.

So I am hoping when Didcot have completed their recreation of a Saint, they will invite Alastair to fire her on the mainline.

I might consider another trip back from France for that!

Teggyone

 

As a WCRC Fireman does Alastair ever fire non VT trains ?.

 

Sorry David but I fail to see your point. There are a couple of other ex TYS firemen who have shown their mettle on non VT trains.
It isn't the load you are pulling behind you that is important, as much as your knowledge of what the loco needs in terms of the amount of coal to put into the firebox to produce just the amount of steam required to pull said load over any route you may be working.

 

Wasn't really a point i was making Kevin, just a simple question, as the original poster said it would be nice for him to get a go on some of Didcots machines in future.

 

To answer your question David, all of us at times help WCR out with guarding, firing, and other jobs when they are short of staff, but we really have enough to do in maintaining our own kit when we are not out there running it, so to some extent it is limited by how much we can actually do in any one week. We are currently averaging just under about forty trains a year with charters, Shakespeares and the occasional private charter so really have more than enough to do with VT's operations. Having said that Alastair did fire 6233 for Bill Andrew on the first down Talisman back in 2005 when it put up a bit of an epic performance.

Bob

 

On Saturday 20th June, I was able to shoot the Castle from almost the same spot as I used for Scots Guardsman on 9th April hauling The Great Britain. So I thought I’d put them side-by-side, to see how they compare. I’ve just posted the result on You Tube (after a week of trying!)

The two runs are incredibly similar! The shots are synchronised on the white house near Greenholme (0:03). By Shap Wells under-bridge (2:45), 46115 is just one loco-length ahead (roughly one second). The shots are taken from slightly different places (higher and further up the hill in June), so the Castle disappears from view just a little earlier, and the relative positions of trees between the camera and the line are different. It was also a surprise to me to see that I chose to zoom back by about the same amount and at the same place both times. In April, the wind was a strong south-westerly, blowing the sound towards us better (right-hand channel), but buffeting the camera more. The split screen format emphasises the camera movement, I’m afraid.

I’m not going to say that one run is better than the other. Both crews did near-perfect jobs. They got their trains over the summit within the schedule without over-exerting the locos or themselves, and in so doing provided great entertainment for passengers and on-lookers.

PS: Hopefully the HD version will be available later this evening. I uploaded it as a 720/25P WMV file, but only the SD version is on-line ATM.