Swanage Railway General Discussion

Scrapping 4EPB Trailer Second Open S15396 did indeed result in the recovery of quite a bit of 'period' items including seats, doors, etc. I've Googled the subject and come across a Facebook entry on 5th April: https://www.facebook.com/swanagerai...e-body-is-now-on-the-ground-/602576301913337/
The EPB trailer is now almost completely stripped. The body is now on the ground after our operations department couldn't move it, out of the siding to allow a loco to be delivered for the steam gala as by then it was an unfitted vehicle with no handbrake or buffers and only a 3 link coupling. The bogies have been put into storage for future use. A few items such as the number and data plates have been prepared for sale at our Rails to Rail event in late June.
With the work on 15396 almost complete we have continued our work on Bulleid composite 5761 and brake 4366 which is to be the recipient of many parts removed from 15396. Doors are being refurbished and a seat back has been stripped and the parts used to create one suitable for 4366.

 

You are right about the LNER. They inherited at least 3 different push-pull systems and developed a fourth system.

From about 1905, the NER fitted a number of BTP (LNER G6) 0-4-4Ts with an air-operated system, with some more fitted by LNER. The GER also fitted a handful of 2-4-2Ts (LNER F7) with air-operated push-pull gear.

Meanwhile, the GCR developed a mechanical system based on rods and pulleys, applied in the early 1920s to a few 2-4-0Ts and 2-4-2Ts (LNER Classes E8 & F1) and later by the LNER to some C13 4-4-2Ts. This system did not prove wholly satisfactory. Quoting from an RCTS booklet: "the mechanical gear needed a lot of maintenance as well as requiring considerable physical strength on the part of the driver to operate the regulator from the driving compartment of the trailer coach. One outcome of this was that it became common practice for drivers to disconnect the gear, operation of the engine when propelling being performed by the fireman in response to whistle codes from the driver."

The C13s with this gear had it replaced in the late 1930s with a vacuum operated push-pull system. This vacuum system appears to have been developed by the LNER, rather than being inherited from any of its constituents. Perhaps they were influenced by the LMS? It was subsequently fitted (by LNER and BR) to engines from a number of other classes, including ex-GN C12 4-4-2Ts, ex-NB C15 4-4-2Ts, ex-NE G5 0-4-4Ts and GE/LNE N7 0-6-2Ts. But the overall numbers of LNER auto-fitted locos look small in comparison with GWR and SR.

When the railway preservation movement began to take-off, some GWR auto-fitted engines and trailers were acquired and taken into use, particularly on the Dart Valley (now South Devon) Rly, which relied for some time on this mode of operation due to an initial lack of a run-round loop at the Totnes end of the line. So operating knowledge of the GWR system transferred into the preservation era. But I don't think any heritage railway has used the SR air-operated or LMS and LNER vacuum-operated push-pull systems, so operating knowledge has been lost and would have to be rebuilt from scratch if these systems were to be brought back into operation. Certainly would be a "nice to have", but I don't think the heritage movement at present can expend too much money and effort on the non-essential.

One final aside. The BR Standard 2MT 2-6-2Ts were fitted with vacuum-operated push-pull equipment as standard, presumably based on the LMS design. That included Nos 84020-9, which were built for the SR and operated on the SECR section - where of course they could not work the SR air-operated push-pull sets!

 

As usual dropped in at Norden on my way to another Poole Hospital visit. Was not expecting this, no idea if the low loader had come down with anything or not.

 

The attached shows the regulator handle in the autocoach ("Chaffinch" in this case) with 1450 supplying the power. The regulator connection between coach and loco looked rather agricultural and one would have thought there was plenty of play in the mechanism but the fact that the driver was holding (and moving) the regulator handle suggests it did provide some control. Presumably someone from the SVR could provide more input.

 

I had a ride in a GWR autocoach on the WSR a good few years ago now. It was a HRA visit and included the triangle at Norton Fitzwarren. I was stood in the open doorway to the passenger compartment and I can confirm that the driver was driving using the regulator and brake. The length and movement of the regulator handle was significantly greater than I would expect if it was the regulator handle on the boiler. The length would help overcome the increased resistance and the movement make up for lost motion in the linkage.

 

Likewise, I've been on GWR auto trains on the WSR and on the Bluebell, and my memory (at least on the Bluebell, where I was positioned to watch the driver) matches yours.

I think I'm right in saying that in the preservation era, only the GWR system has been operated in genuine push-pull mode. What the reason for that is I don't know, though I can think of some possibilities. Amongst non-GWR stock, the Isle of Wight Steam Railway has a pair of operational push-pull carriages (https://iwsteamrailway.co.uk/heritage/our-rolling-stock/carriages-wagons/push-pull/) but has never, to my knowledge, operated them in push-pull mode.

Tom

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topi...ra-push-pull-conversions-who-what-when-where/

In particular

Posted May 23, 2020
The Isle of Wight Push Pull set is genuine, it is formed of a pair of LCDR 4 vehicles which were converted to Push Pull set 484 in 1924. The equipment in the Driving Trailer however is not operational and the railway has no push pull fitted loco. A (very) long term desire is to fit at least one loco (the two Terriers both had Push Pull fittings in the past) and to bring the set into a fully operational condition. The only operating Push Pull stock I am aware of is some of the GWR autotrailers which use a mechanical system.

 

Pure speculation but, when the erstwhile Dart Valley Railway was collecting locomotives and stock in the mid sixties, auto fitted GW locos and trailers were available to buy from British Railways. Thus, there was continuity of equipment and, moreover, it was put to use. Quite a lot of stock initially went this way and to the GWS, much of which eventually went elsewhere. There was no such similar occurrence with any of the other systems, all of which I think had fallen into disuse by this time. I can't immediately think of a non GWR auto fitted locomotive going into preservation either direct from BR or via Barry. Without an auto fitted loco or a coach there would be little logic in fitting one of either. It would need a dedicated project to make it happen.

 

120's frames were at he stop block of the siding on Wednesday last when I went to take some measurements of the chimney. I assume that Herston has accepted them for work to start.
Pat

 

One non-GWR loco I can think of is 263 at the Bluebell, which was motor-fitted (on the SR system) at withdrawal. . The group preserving it put it back to SE&CR condition though, and I don’t know what happened to the equipment.

Two photos, one from each side, showing that there would be a lot of plumbing to reinstate, and no detail of how the control mechanism actually worked.









Tom

 

James, seeing you have posted those wonderful photos, I think you could be on the road to conversion to wanting BR 1960s condition for the Bluebell fleet.

I shall sleep well tonight.

Bryan

 

Presumably the Floor Mill workshop are making progress with 120's boiler?
Looks like the Herston workshop will be busy with the return of 30053 (from NNR), 80104 and Sidmouth (from Tyseley)?
https://southern-locomotives.co.uk/News/news.html

 

This is a clearer view of the kit on the LHS (on 31308).

 

It was certainly gone by July 1968 when I photographed 263 at Robertsbridge.
Ray.

 

I have a suspicion it was removed by BR when the loco was sold (and kept for spares by BR).

Tom

 

I would interpret that as an air-operated piston that is going back (via various cranks and linkages) to operate the regulator handle in the cab.

Tom

 

Looks like it. The attached is [some of] the gubbins on 84002. Less easy to interpret that. (image from E-pics Zurich site)

 

Thinking about it........

There were a lot of distinctive GWR auto trailers that you could look over the drivers shoulder and see the line ahead

As far as I can see most of the other 'post grouping' auto stock isnt as distinctive with the possible exception of the LSWR Gate stock

Might that be part of it?

 

In 'Locomotives of the Isle of Wight Railways', by Messrs. Cooper, Faulkner, Maycock and Silsbury, there is a schematic of the pull-push equipment on both loco and driving carriage. The main reservoir supplied air to a back-pressure reservoir which connected to one side of the piston in the regulator cylinder, tending to keep it closed. a higher pressure on the other side of the piston would open it. There were 3 air lines and one electric connection (exclusive of the brake pipe) - Regulator control; Main supply, Back-pressure supply. The principal is probably straightforward, the devil is in the details of all the doo-hickery that regulates pressures, &c.
Pat

 

Perhaps a silly question, but does the Drummond Society possess any of the Push Pull equipment and/or the Donkey pump?
Also someone up thread asked when push pull trains started on the Swanage branch ? According to the book "Swanage branch in Colour By Andrew PM Wright, LSWR Push Pull sets were first used experimentaly as far back as 1912
and from 1922 to 1964.