North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Yes I understand that but the risk of a major wildfire in Newtondale is very real, even without man-made sources of ignition a lightning strike could lay waste to all those habitats that are considered so important and undo that ability to retain water. The Langdale Moor fire is the worst since 1976. So I asked Grok if the moorland severely damaged in 1976 had recovered, this is its answer;

**No**, the moorland severely damaged by the 1976 fire on the North York Moors—particularly Rosedale Moor, where over 1,500 acres burned deeply into the peat—has not fully recovered as of 2025. While vegetation has shown partial regrowth through restoration efforts like ditch blocking and seeding with heather and sphagnum moss, significant ecological scars remain, including bare peat areas and altered soil structures. Peat, which grows at just 1 mm per year and forms the foundation of these ecosystems over millennia, suffered irreversible losses in depth and carbon storage that could take centuries or longer to rebuild.

### Key Impacts and Recovery Timeline:
- **Immediate Effects (1976)**: The drought-fueled fire destroyed surface vegetation, consumed organic horizons, and ignited deep peat layers, leading to months of smoldering and erosion of over 75% of peat in affected sites (equivalent to ~19.2 million kg dry weight).
- **Short-Term (1979, 3 years post-fire)**: Extensive bare peat and mineral surfaces persisted, with slowest recolonization on charred peat due to physical barriers to seed germination and nutrient leaching (e.g., potassium, sodium, magnesium).
- **Medium-Term (1986, 10 years post-fire)**: About 30% of a 600 ha site remained unvegetated, with poor recovery for key species like Calluna vulgaris (heather); bryophytes and mosses dominated early regrowth, but biodiversity and carbon storage were compromised.
- **Long-Term (2018, 42 years post-fire)**: Impacts were still visible in places, informing restoration for later fires (e.g., 2003 Fylingdales). Efforts stabilized surfaces and boosted some bird populations, but full peat and vegetation restoration requires decades of management.
- **Current Status (2025, 49 years post-fire)**: No evidence indicates complete recovery; ongoing degradation risks from erosion and climate change suggest persistent vulnerability, with deep peat burns unlikely to fully regenerate within human timescales.

These findings underscore the vulnerability of UK peatlands to severe wildfires, emphasizing the need for proactive management to prevent future irreversible damage.

Grok end

Just reading a little about restoring Newtondale to native species instead of the conifers planted to provide pit props for the mining industry, this is welcomed but again without management is just going to become another source of fuel for wildfires. Failure to deal with fallen brushwood will ultimately increase risk of fires and their severity, it amused me that's one of the objectives of this project is to remove weirs and barriers from water courses to improve the flow!
After this summer's wildfire, I would be suggesting to Natural England to turn the railway into the centre of a fire break to reduce the risk of fires spreading from one side of the valley to the other.

Sawdust.

 

Thank you for the comprehensive reply, I had a look at the 'Wild Newton Dale project and it makes for interesting reading. It has only been going since April 2024, so it would be difficult to imagine the it has had chance to make that much difference to the size of the area they are working with, by the time the NYMR was having wildfire issues this year? One of their goals is to restore watercourses where they have been blocked or diverted, which I would have thought would be beneficial for fire resilience long term?

They make a point of stating that they are part of the 'Linking Lewisham' scheme, in turn they name the NYMR as a major partner.

I think it's very important that we (our railways) don't make enemies of environmental groups or projects close to us. The landscape was there a long time before the line, and it will be a long time after. We need to work with it and promote it's recovery, especially when as a sector, we run the risk of setting a fair amount of it on fire. If we're not on side, the sector is a very easy target as something to remove.

 

It’s also worth acknowledging that schemes like this are not supported by all, and that the techniques used are to some extent a trial.

Reading about the scheme, what struck me was the tension between allowing natural processes to work in a landscape, and the thoroughly unnatural operation of a steam railway through that landscape, with the fire risks it poses. While bracken is hardly a new neighbour to the railway, the transition phase through large scale growth until trees are mature is liable to be a challenge.

 

Set swap today at Grosmont.

 

True, but people and their doings have been a part of the ecosystem in Britain for thousands of years, so restoring the landscape to 'what it was before people' is a big change to an ecosystem that had, to some degree, adapted to people (who are, to me, during a large part of that period, a fairly un-privileged member of the suite of species that make up the ecosystem). So, deciding to restore things to 'what they were in ca. 1600' (or whatever year one wants; I picked '1600' out of the air at random) is a somewhat arbitrary choice, and not (to me) particularly better, or more defendable, than any other year.

Not that I'm against the current restoration plans (they seem like they will likely produce a 'better' - from the PoV of many species, including people - water flow than the current arrangement); I just wish people would realize that a lot of choices are fairly arbitrary.

Noel

 

Are sheep still extant in Newtondale?
If not that makes my cine film of D1048 Western Lady chasing a sheep in Newtondale, taken from the train doubly historically interesting.

Sawdust.

 

the project might only have started in 2024 but it is a long time since there many or any sheep grazing that area, so it was being converted by lack of grazing.

 

Not seen any for a long time, the state of some of our fences would suggest not.

 

I'm assuming I have correctly parsed your post, and that it was you who wrote that, not @60044 - not too important, though.

The import of this comment seems to be that the vast majority of heritage lines (which mostly seem to share a basic operating model, as organizations) are facing a very grim future - that their basic operating models are not far off failing? At this moment, I neither agree nor disagree (I need to hear more); I just wanted to verify that I have understood you properly.

Noel

 

I'm certainly not a believer in either radically changing the NYMR's business model (because I( don't believe that it is fundamentally broken) but I do believe that an effort has to be made vi a the advertising campaigns to emphasise what the Pickering - Grosmont railway has to offer. a diversification effort is also needed - restore more special events that match the heritage character, add other attractions that add to the ambiance without costing too much to install, and hopefully provide some additional income. Add more diverse catering at both the upmarket and, also the mid-market ends, including cream teas. Embrace and use pre-Mk 1 carriages as a premium product. emphasise steam haulage! By and large, I want to see the NYMR better exploiting much of what it already has! Is that unreasonable? At the same time, let's stop overselling that which really is not remarkable - Mk 1 carriages, diesels in modern period liveries etc. and stress the more genuinely vintage stuff. Not only does the vintage stuff draw the public, by and large it's also what enthuses the volunteers - and on that point, the management really needs to start showing more obvious appreciation of its volunteers: mbwa needs to become part of the weekly management routine, from the top down!

 

I'd refine that down to saying that the general public are becoming more discerning, and the breadth and quality of the experience needs to be improved.

 

I'd agree, the problem is if every heritage railway offers more or less the same experience. That is MK1 TSOs in maroon or blood and custard (or green or chocolate and cream for that matter) with a locomotive that is BR black or green, then there is nothing really setting them apart and only the die hards will want to experience that over and over again, particularly if we are going to end up with a view of trees twelve feet away from the train. Those who are able to offer something a bit different seem to do quite well.
I think In the future being able to offer a unique selling point, or offer added value to the journey will become essential. One only has to look at how how the polar express and similar products have eclipsed the traditional coffee and mince pie Santa specials.

Sawdust.

 

I think it is fair to say that the business model is close to breaking, but it is also fair to say that some imagination and creativity could invigorate it once more.

The model has been to take retired equipment with some life left and minimise staff costs with volunteers. To offer a fairly limited range of product offers mostly consisting of riding up and down a section of line. Shortfalls in what can be earned from ticket sales are made up by seeking donations, or charitable grants of one type or another. Some sold shares with no expectation of a return (a form of donation really).

All elements of this need revising, but none of it is invalid even now. There is a pinch in the supply of volunteers, and new recruitment methods and creativity around training - perhaps even considering training that is done in conjunction with other railways or heritage centres (shock I know) - might fix this. Better management of volunteers is also essential and that takes a level of understanding from managers.

Another area where creativity is needed is devising events and services. Lots of new events are actually just finding the latest “in” characters and having a day with Peppa Pig or Wallace and Gromit or Ant and Dec (not seriously). I don’t think that is enough. Completely different uses of the railway need to be found to entice new audiences in through the door. And the world has become more demanding. Good is good enough. The experience has to be great.

I don’t think there is a viable alternative business model. We’re not going to replace all the volunteers, and in fact we should be attempting to reduce reliance on paid staff over time wherever possible. So this is a sort of “Back to the Future” (idea for a new event ?? ), but with differences. We can’t go back to how things were, but how things were can really help us think about how they might be. What gave strength im the past was the flexibility and agility and efficiency of shoestring organisations. Some of that spirit of invention needs rekindling. I do think some railways will close in the coming years, but it need not be many.

 

That may well be. (I don't have any personal knowledge that would enable me to comment intelligibly.) We shall see, from the numbers are various lines.

I wonder whether 'social club' lines will be better placed to be under less pressure to 'improve the product', if/when the tastes of the general public change? I guess it all depends on what the purpose of a given line is - social club, living museum, or whatever (or some mixture thereof).

Noel

 

I suspect not. I don’t think the nature of the line, or purpose as you put it (which is fair enough) is what will make the difference. The willingness to learn, experiment (intelligently) and attract people in sufficient numbers (visitors and volunteers) relative to size is what will.

 

Do not know what happened with my reply but my reply I have repeated below. So yes you have interpreted my point correctly. Sorry for the confusion.

I sincerely hope you are not including me in your statement "It doesn't seem to be a widely shared belief with others ~(in fact, with virtual no-one else who posts on here," because as I have stated before I believe the the Heritage Railway model is not terminally broken in most places it is coming very close to it.
I may well agree with everything that @Lineisclear posts but I do not believe you can just say that all change either suggested or past is bad. We all know you do not agree with operation to Whitby, yet it would appear to be the pace where the NYMR fills most of its trains to.
What I do still see on here is a lot of "Field Of Dreams" mentality, i.e. run it and they will come. I have seen it on my local line with comments about howe Wareham may happen at some stage in the future, or why more steam services should be run when the existing ones are not full.
I see comments about too many diesels, or not enough trains, and yet a I see a number of lines reporting large losses. So all those boards all around the country have got it wrong, but you are right?
Many (me included rightly) hold the Bluebell up as a shining example of how things can evolve with activities outside the railway as experiences, yet in my last magazine from the railway, the new and outgoing chairman made amongst many others the following points:
"We are desperately short of volunteers"
"We cannot continue down the path of 'yep just here to run trains"
"At the end of the day it is all about money".
"We have gone from having a sizeable sum of money on account at our bank to approaching our overdraft limit"
In 2024 they lost £0.5M and the same loss is forecast for this year.

Yes @Lineisclear may be honest, too honest?, about the focus on legislation and the risks of falling foul of those. But as someone who spent his life writing and administering contracts that to me is someone who has their commercial head well screwed on trying to protect your railway I think you should be grateful somebody cares enough.
I am sure GWR could have found something better to do with a £1M that it seems to have cost them for not filling in some pieces of paper, which would not have stopped a drunk person sticking their head out of a window of an HST anyway.

 

Whilst I continue to agree with the majority of what you say, I diverge on a few points. I remain convinced that Whitby should be the primary destination. I also think that the teaks should not be marketed as premium. After all, the majority were designated as third class and we should continue to offer them as that. After all, that’s what heritage travel was and we should show how good it was (and can be.)
As far as marketing goes the Pickering- Grosmont line and it’s quality, my view is that its scenery requires to be managed and not be allowed to return to nature. Running a railway through a forest is far less enjoyable than through a well managed countryside where you can see things in the distance.

 

You don't mention secondary spend, this used to be crucial and the difference between breaking even and making a profit. The service and products offered by on and off train catering and shops is crucial. Having the right personalities selling, especially with on train catering will make a massive difference to how well these outlets perform and also to volunteer recruitment, it was Evening Star and a highly sociable buffet crew (working both RMB and trolley) that drew me into increased involvement with the NYMR.
It's interesting who you mention, what I call the fat that is left in locomotives and rolling stock when they are discarded by the big railway. As that fat is used up in preservation it leaves a choice of ever increasing repair bills, or a choice between effectively cascading to newer discarded assets or building new ones where permitted. More and more locomotives are passing their centenary, it won't be many years before some are as old as L&MR Lion was when it was steamed in 1980, how many are going to be able to safely keep going beyond that age? Also nostalgia is a moving target as the population changes, the things they wistfully remember from their youth changes, however I think they will always be a curiosity and a desire for steam. After all, I prefer steam and the only pre preservation steam I witnessed, I was too young to remember (demolition trains on the Pateley Bridge line, from my pushchair from the other side of Nidderdale).
Basically I think that of enough people have the will, then they will find a way to keep lines going, otherwise it was fun while it lasted.

Sawdust.

 

People habitually quote secondary spend as being the saviour of heritage railways. I’ve no such belief in that. It is a nice to have, but that is all. The heritage railway needs to be able to survive on its primary income stream of ticket revenue.