North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Forgive me a asking but are there paths to have an evening high end twice the price but diesel hauled Whitby-Pickering-Whitby dining train?
It just crossed my mind that such an operation might appeal to the Airbnb set.

Sawdust.

 

I think that was one of the aspirations behind going to Whitby. Unfortunately it is scuppered by the Northern timetable. The school trains are cast In tablets of stone and can’t be changed. Unless the am train sits in bog hall sidings all day to return Kate afternoon it has to return whence it came in the morning and return again for the afternoon departure so they are unmoveable as well. That leaves the late morning train as the only one which could be moved if Northern agreed, which is unlikely. This all makes the NYMR t/t inconvenient for Whitby outbound purposes.

 

Dunno without sitting down and working it out. I suspect it wouldn’t be possible with the current EVL t/t, though. It would also require four signalmen with little to do, as well.

 

Well given that in ye olde days the first departures from Grosmont and Pickering were 09:50 and 10:20 respectively, a 10:00 departure from Whitby seems pretty civilised, so what are the loadings like on the first two out of Whitby and the last two into there?

Sawdust.

 

For fun I asked Grok AI if it were theoretically possible, I haven't checked this out.

Begin AI

Yes, it's possible to extend the dwell times at Whitby in the proposed timetable without conflicting with Northern Rail services on the Esk Valley line. The sparse evening schedule (just two outbound trains from Whitby after 17:00: 19:42 and 22:23) leaves room for adjustments, especially since the heritage train can follow or precede them safely on the single-track sections with passing loops at Grosmont and Glaisdale.

Quick Feasibility Check
- First Whitby stop (around 19:40 arrival): Currently ~2 minutes before departing at 19:42 to shadow the 19:42 Northern service (arriving Grosmont 19:59). You could extend the dwell to 20-30 minutes (e.g., depart 20:00-20:10), as the heritage train would trail the Northern by 18-28 minutes on the return to Grosmont (~20:25-20:35 arrival). The next oncoming train (20:43 from Middlesbrough) doesn't reach Glaisdale until 21:46, giving a ~1-hour buffer—no head-on risk.
- Second Whitby stop (around 23:15 arrival): Currently 10 minutes before departing at 23:25. With the last Northern departing Whitby at 22:23 (arriving Grosmont 22:39 and clearing shortly after), the line is completely clear afterward. You could extend this to 30-45 minutes (or longer) for a relaxed evening wind-down, departing up to ~00:00 without issues.

Adjusted Timetable Example (with ~20-min First Dwell + ~30-min Second Dwell)
This shifts the middle legs slightly later but keeps the total ~4.5 hours. Travel times unchanged; added buffers for safety.

Leg | Route | Departure | Arrival | Duration | Dwell at Whitby | Notes
--- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | ---
1 | Grosmont → Whitby (Esk Valley) | 19:15 | 19:40 | 25 min | - | After Northern arrival at Grosmont (19:09).
Whitby Dwell | - | - | - | - | 20 min | Extended for views/coastal walk; Northern departs 19:42 ahead.
2 | Whitby → Grosmont (Esk Valley) | 20:00 | 20:25 | 25 min | - | Follows Northern (clears Grosmont 19:59); buffer to oncoming 20:43 service.
3 | Grosmont → Pickering (NYMR) | 20:35 | 21:45 | 70 min | - | Ample gap post-Northern clearing Glaisdale (20:10).
4 | Pickering → Grosmont (NYMR) | 21:55 | 23:05 | 70 min | - | 10-min Pickering stop; precedes Northern arrival at Glaisdale (21:46) on return. After Northern clears Grosmont (~22:41 from 22:23 Whitby dep).
5 | Grosmont → Whitby (Esk Valley) | 23:10 | 23:35 | 25 min | - | Line fully available post-last Northern (22:23 dep Whitby).
Whitby Dwell | - | - | - | - | 30 min | Longer evening stop—sunset vibes if timing aligns!
6 | Whitby → Grosmont (Esk Valley) | 00:05 | 00:30 | 25 min | - | No conflicts; quiet night running.

This keeps everything feasible under Network Rail rules (token system for single-track sections). Total running time similar, but more time to enjoy Whitby—perhaps add a fish-and-chips option during dwells! If you want even longer (e.g., 45 min at the second stop), we could push the final leg later.

End AI

They used to entice signallers to volunteer with nice free food for evening diners, is that still a thing?

Sawdust.

 

One might think so, but whilst I’ve seen on occasions the 9.20 and 12 noon departures from Pickering to Whitby almost full to bursting (sunny but not too hot a day visiting either Goathland or Whitby, I’d say 50/50 in terms of numbers), I’ve only ever seen the 10am Whitby to Pickering some 50% full (grey day in Whitby where the tourists there are escaping for a ride in the train and to visit either Pickering or Goathland (I would say 50 / 50 again). I think the differences are that Pickering has a wider catchment area (including York, West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire etc) whilst Whitby is just Whitby and maybe between Redcar and Robin Hoods Bay and a bit of Scarborough).

 

Are you serious!

 

That is pretty much what I expected. There are empty seats there to be sold, perhaps a poster campaign on the coast, extra leafleting of accommodation at that end of the line, bespoke offers or vouchers for those services. Every extra seat filled there is pure profit.

Sawdust.

 

I bet somebody said that to Tom Rolt at some stage.

Guess!

Sawdust.

 

I said “seriously” because:
- the evening Whitby Service requires stewards to look after / monitor the mk1 doors and windows
- station staff ought to be required in Pickering to assist with passenger embarkation (low platform) and dispatch
- late manning of all four signal boxes
- late locking up of Pickering station
- TTIs required on all trains, as well as guard and train crew
All in all I doubt if there will be sufficient volunteers for the suggested additional duties (I certainly wouldn’t volunteer, and I doubt my wife would allow).
I also question the demand to warrant the addition costs of running these services; who wants to travel on the NYMR in the dark?

 

Apologies my response above was based on a non-dining train. I missed the earlier thread asking about a high-end dining train.

Even so, a high end dining train would still require crewing (guard, catering, signal boxes manning). I suppose it would be nice to have an evening dining train start and finish at Whitby rather than Grosmont. Eg run Grosmont - Whitby - Grosmont Pickering - Grosmont- Whitby - Grosmont. Are the Pullman carriages still certified for the Whitby branch but I suspect one of the biggest issues would be Jenny (the horse box containing the generator).

ps before I moved to the area on retirement we once had a couple of holidays in Whitby, and once driving to Grosmont to catch the evening diner and the other time the lunchtime diner, and never found the short drive a problem.

 

Pps re the high end diner idea, I’d rather have a high end diner (with an associated price tag) on the existing Pulmam. Make it proper high end (a la Bluebell), restore and put on car 79, take off an existing Pulmam car (which can then be restored to high end) and the existing BG, replacing with a couple of Mk1s (or even the proverbial teaks), and make its exiting path also available to non-diners (as used to occur).

And then maybe run it starting from Pickering in the path of the 10.55 ex Pickering, 16.4o return. The Pullman would still operate as a diner 12.35 ex Grosmont and return, but available for high end morning coffee and afternoon tea on the Pickering starts / ends.

 

Sounds a good idea, maybe offer brunch on the 1055 on certain days?

 

I recall the justification for the grant funding for garnet, included running it to Whitby, if that capability has been given up on, then the cost of fitting it with new roller bearings was a waste. About the dark, I wasn't thinking of running this any other time than May, June, or July. Signallers could be reduced by only going as far as Levisham.
If not Whitby start, then Pickering start as when the Pullman was started from Pickering (mostly with diesel haulage) all the three Met Cam Pullman's were full, as was the RF and often one or both SOs and sometimes even the BSO with diners.
Dining trains didn't used to be operated during the day as more money was made from full ordinary passenger trains.

Sawdust.

 

No sensible idea should be rejected without good reason but is it common ground that what matters is maximising the financial surplus from train operations ( and secondary spend)? That is not at all the same thing as seizing every opportunity to generate revenue. Understandably members, and especially volunteers, prefer to see a busy railway but in a high cost environment doing less may sometimes be a better financial strategy.

 

I agree. However, that analysis also needs to take into account where costs are already committed, and therefore additional income will effectively be pure profit.

That is not something that comes across as being a strong point for NYMR.

 

And think most of us totally agree that it is the financial surplus that matters. No trains should operate where there is no financial surplus or otherwise for sound operating (eg train otherwise an ECS) or strategic reason (eg freight train), with preference to those service that maximise the BCR (Benefit to Cost Ratio), where Benefit is the financial surplus (Revenue less direct operating costs) and Costs is the direct operating costs (staff, track wear and tear, fuel and other direct costs). I also think that a monetary value should be attached to freely given volunteers time say £25 per hour (otherwise minimum wage, NI + overhead) even when a service does not incur that actual cost, eg volunteers manning a signal box to enable an evening service, to ensure volunteer time is most usefully / effectively used (and not just “busy fools”).

ps my old day job was as a transport economist, including not only assessing and seeking funding for road schemes but also passenger based schemes (eg Soham station, St Ives guided bus).

 

I’m 100% in agreement that volunteers time should be costed into these things. I give my time for the railway, not so someone can have a cheap day out/ whatever. However, I’m not certain that £25/hr is a reasonable figure. Twenty years ago HLF suggested ‘ordinary’ volunteer time should be costed at £50/day and skilled time at £150/day. That probably equates to £100/day and £300/day today.
Back in Philip Benham’s time there was a spreadsheet that listed the cost of everything related to the operation of a train, including fixed and variable costs, maintenance, and a host of other things. I thought I had a copy but can’t find it.

 

Back in Philip Benham's time he knew the cost of everything and made a decent profit.

Was Chris Price's warning that future services for profit (due to terrible increased costs) should be one engine in steam and a DMU not taken seriously by the trustees?
Did the trust want to carry on as before and live in hope, whilst Chris saw the real picture and moved away?

 

Picking up on this point about high-end dining.

The Bluebell's Pullman dining train is high end. We have made a strategic decision over the years to concentrate on 1920s (rather than 1950s) Pullmans, because the ambiance is better.

But bear in mind that the last vehicle restored - Car 54 - cost about £750k in actual cash, using a mix of volunteer and paid staff labour. So the current three coach (plus van) set is probably the thick end of £2m at current prices, for vehicles that probably have a service life of 30 years or so before needing another major overhaul. So to do a real costing you ought to be assuming around £70k per year in depreciation to keep the set running (and £2m of capital tied up that could have gone elsewhere). As a model it only works if you run a lot of trains. I'm not sure how many we currently run; I know I looked pre-covid and it was about 100 scheduled per year, plus some additional charter work (weddings and so on). I suspect it is fewer now, but it is still a lot - two trains this weekend, for example. I suspect we still run 60 - 80 per year even now.

As a preservation society, I think they are lovely vehicles, and particularly important for us given how integral Pullman services were in Southern England. At a commercial level, they also do an important thing of tapping into a different market from the core service trains - diversification of market segments is in my view very important. So there are a lot of positives, but you shouldn't underestimate the barriers of entry to the market, nor the fact that to make it work, you need a market that will support a lot of trains. And if you don't have operational Pullmans now, it is probably very difficult to justify the up front investment required to acquire some, when it might be years before you start to see any return.

(As an aside about loco working - the Saturday evening Pullman always uses one of the locos that ran service trains in the day, so the loco cost is really just the marginal cost of an extra trip of a loco that is already in steam - there is no additional boiler cycle. The Sunday lunchtime train uses an additional loco to the service trains, normally the one that has done the Saturday afternoon Wealden Rambler, which is an upmarket high tea service - so in high season, we would typically have two locos working all week, and a third doing both days at the weekend. To run the evening Pullman requires an additional loco crew, guard, station staff at Sheffield Park and East Grinstead and I believe a minimum of two signalmen for Sheffield Park and Kingscote, with long section working.)

Tom