Grounded body at Rye Harbour

Hi, Whilst on a walk today, i noticed an old coach body next to the Pub, over at Rye Harbour,
I tried to find out what it was, and what i have found it very unclear, some say its an old Rye and Camber coach, but its clearly not narrow gauge, and looks to be a 4 wheel all 3rd I would say, judging by the positioning of the windows, there's stacks of pictures on line, but as far as I can tell, no one has established what this coach was, or even what it's identity was

 

This one?

https://cs.rhrp.org.uk/CarriageSurvey/displaycarriage.php?Ref=PI3W5E9M4SANF7YZUHJ1

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ToJg2mQehKMyBArN8

Tom

 

Yes, thanks for the link, so, not really much known, going by that,

 

Well, type and company known, but not the number. I suspect you'd need to carefully strip back layers of paint to identify the number.

Assuming the Carriage Register ID is accurate, an interesting survivor. SER carriages are rarer than Hen's teeth in preservation - most of the survivors from that way are ex-LCDR, not SER.

But definitely not Rye and Camber!

Tom

 

"Delivered to Rye Harbour in 1928 for use as a tea room when Mary Stanford Lifeboat capsized (all 17 crew drowned)."
A very ghoulish tourist attraction or a very thorough emergency response (for a very slow sinking...?

 

Still leave a lot of unanswered questions, for example, when was it, and other SER 4-wheeler coaches likely to have been withdrawn, by that time it would have been the Southern Railway, bodies removed from underframes. bodies sold as chalets, and sheds, is anything known of the others that were sent to Rye?

 

An interesting survivor - thanks for giving the link.

We have had a number of new-build loco projects, partly to fill gaps in the preservation record, with some on view at the recent Bluebell gala. But on the carriage front, I think the only new-build projects have been for narrow-gauge lines. It remains to be seen whether any of the standard-gauge heritage lines will eventually want new-build carriages. But I have to say that, particularly on the longer lines, I would much prefer to travel in a comfortable modern coach rather than in a Victorian 4-wheeler!

 

One or two of the knotty coaches at Foxfield have been pretty close to newbuild bodies, and the Oldbury coach on the IoW had a newbuild underframe, so most of it has been done one way or another. I assume in the latter case the running gear was recycled though.

 

Modern coaches, as distinct from replicas, would be a nightmare as they have no grandfather rights and would have to comply with all current legislation.

 

A fair number of 4-wheelers made it into the grouping, but I suspect by that time were kept mainly for things like Hop Pickers' Specials, and left rusticating on sidings for most of the year. Given the date of sale, I think it is quite possible it never received SR livery.

The Vintage Carriage Survey lists 13 SER survivors. (In comparison there are 43 ex-LCDR carriages listed).

Of those 13, they broadly fall into three groups:

• Six bodies from four wheel / six wheel carriages.
  • Of those six, three are at the Bluebell - a four compartment brake 3rd with centre birdcage lookout; a six compartment 3rd and a first class family saloon. All are candidates for restoration, but not in the immediate future. All three were I believe recovered from Pagham. (1 - brake 3rd) (2 - six compartment 3rd) (3 - Family Saloon)
  • Of the other three, one is the carriage you saw at Rye, one is at the Elham Valley and one is gradually disappearing into the undergrowth at Sellinge. (4 - Elham Valley) (5 - Rye Harbour) (6 - Sellinge)
• Six bogie carriages built for luxury trains for Hastings and Folkestone; and all of which are now incorporated into houses at Selsey. (7 - Dolphin) (8 - Venus) (9 - Mabel) (10 - Hilda) (11 - Tulip) (12 - Dora)
• "Constance", another luxury vehicle with an unusual monocoque construction. This had been sawn in half when converted to a house, which makes restoration very difficult. For a long time it was owned by the Bluebell, but given it was unlikely ever to rise to the top of a restoration queue, it was sold in 1922 2022 to a private owner who intends to restore it. (13)

Finally, parts of three ex-SER carriages were incorporated by the Southern Railway onto a new bogie underframe to form the prototype vehicle for conversion of redundant steam-hauled carriages into trailer cars for electric haulage. This vehicle is preserved at the Bluebell and ran in the early years of the railway, though now requires restoration. (14 - SER / SR Composite)

Tom

 

Half of one body ...

NSR 23 - the accessible brake - does have * some * original material in the brake half, the rest is "new build" based on similar structures.
NSR 61 & NSR 127 have significant amounts of original material in their structures, and a few pieces of original panelling.
Having been grounded bodies, the cill frames were not suitable for re-use !
All three are on re-cycled chassis, with 23 on an ex-LMS 20T brake van chassis, waggons for the other two.

NSR 228 will need a new underframe and a good deal of new timber in the cills and body, when it eventually passes into the workshop for rebuilding.

ipernity: NORTH STAFFORDSHIRE RAILWAY ROLLING STOCK RESTORATION TRUST

 

Wow Tom, I didn’t realise the Bluebell had been going for that long!!

 

And the new owner's had it for some time too. Wonder if it's finished yet...

 

Oops!

Tom

 

AFAIK, 4 wheelers lasted longer in service than 6 wheelers did. A few 4 wheelers, from the GWR, just made it to nationalisation, whereas 6 wheelers disappeared before the war

 

There were some sets of older SER carriages used for hop-pickers' trains and the like, but they'd gone by the mid 1920s. By 1923, the SE&CR were not using 4 and 6 wheelers on main line trains, as they'd built a lot of 3 coach bogie sets. The suburban sets were displaced by electrification. The newer SER and SE&CR 4 and 6 wheelers ( which had elliptical roofs) were mostly combined in pairs on new underframes for use in electric stock. The ex LC&DR 4 and 6 wheelers which had low arc roofs but were quite solidly built were in many cases formed into 14 coach sets for hoppers' trains and other low class excursions, plus a few which were sent to the Isle of Wight. So not many later pattern SER and SE&CR non bogie carriages were around to be sold to people wanting cheap bungalows and the like.

 

Were the underframes which the SER and SECR bodies fitted to later reused again with new bodies to become 4 EPBs?

 

Yes, I believe so, the Bulleid style ones. The Southern Railway/Region didn't like throwing stuff away if it could be used again. In the 1960s it wasn't unusual to see initials of pre-Grouping companies on EPB axlebox covers.

 

According to David Jenkinson ("British Railway Carriages of the 20th Century"), the LNER had 50% of the 4w and 6w coaches surviving across the Big Four. I've attached scans of a couple of his LNER photos - one showing an ex-GC Class B6 4-6-0 with express headcode hauling a rake of elderly coaches, the other with some GE coaches including a 6-wheeler Brake 2nd with a gangway connection.

There were also quite a few 4/6-wheelers on the LMS. Jenkinson draws particular attention to the North London Rly, who stuck with 4-wheelers until operation was taken over from 1908 by the LNWR - who then introduced some "modernized" 4-wheelers with elliptical roofs for the NLR line. I think the SR constituents had by then gone over to building only bogie coaches for suburban work?

At the time of Grouping in 1923, the Caledonian was still building new 4-wheelers for local work. Which seems surprising, given that the Caledonian had also built some of the largest vehicles of the Pre-Grouping era - the 65ft 12-wheeled "Grampian" stock. But before criticizing the Caledonian for these late 4-wheelers, perhaps we should remember that BR in the 1980s built a lot of 4-wheel "Pacer" units.