North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Yes,nail on head. Unfortunately there will always be many people who are priced off. They may not be able to afford a day out to the North Yorkshire Moors/Coast or a week in a caravan. Or if that is affordable, a ride on the railway may not be. That may be a comment on the state of the world, but it is not NYMRs job to change that. It is their job to square the circle between their cost base and the revenue they can generate using all the levers at their disposal. Easier said than done and I wish them wisdom and success for 2026.

 

And there becomes the conundrum really, the fixed costs for much of the railway are going to be in the same ball park at all lines. Population levels may influence the availability pool of volunteers, which in turn lead to the need of more/ less paid staff but a lot of the costs cannot be avoided regardless of the location in the country.
ps I would regard both meals as a rip off, the one in Yorkshire just less so. But then I regard a Big Mac as a rip off these days. Highlights the perception issue I guess plus the fact I only eat to live.

 

And this is why it is so important when pricing things to bear in mind that the "right" answer is not what any specific individual will do, but what people will do on average.

 

Martin, several members on here know who I am, I’m not exactly difficult to miss am I?
I’ll say Sorry for last nights post, I appreciate that I did over step the mark and have subsequently deleted my post.
However I really don’t like how you have responded to previous posts myself and other members have made.
But I really don’t like being spoken/replied to whatever you want to call it by anybody.
There is a reason I don’t contribute as much as I used too on here, it’s the same one as I have you blocked on other Fora.
I’ve said this before I don’t think Communication is a strong point of yours, so I will return fire if I think I’m being spoken to unfairly.
I’m certainly no angel but I like to think I’ll hold my hands up and apologise when I say the wrong thing.
(Something to consider maybe?)

Thank you for the kind comments about my Father though.
Matt

 

I’m up for that.
Anyhow back to the NYMR…

 

My experience is a little out of date now, but a friend and I co-owned an 08 shunter for 11 years. We spent 4 years restoring it and the next 7 years attempting to maintain it through various failures until eventually we admitted defeat and sold it. The new owners have done a great job with it and hopefully it will be around for many years to come, so a good outcome I think.
The point of this is that we bought it during the Gordon Brown era, when interest rates were rock bottom (savings weren't doing anything) and also VAT was reduced (suddenly, more disposable income), and, from a personal perspective, this was also pre-marriage and kids (again, more disposable income). We sold it when all of these things (apart from the interest rates) had moved on. And, considering what the whole project cost us, I believe we ended up about £10k out of pocket, and that's without accounting for our hundreds of hours invested nor the fuel of multiple trips to various scrapyards gathering spares. Now, perhaps we were unlucky with a couple of technical failures, and perhaps we didn't get the loco back into traffic quickly enough due to our own lack of free time, and thus lost out on hire income, but the point is that during that time we, as private owners, effectively subsidised our host railway's traction needs by around £10k, which was really never acknowledged. If we assume that the same applies to many other private owners then these railways are getting an absolute bargain and the true cost of operating these locos certainly isn't being covered, nor are they generating enough surplus to cover repairs, but you can also be pretty sure the host railways (and I am very much generalising here) won't step up with any funding when something goes bang and the owners can't afford to fix it. More likely the owners will be told "it's broken, please take it away".
Honestly I don't know why anybody does it and I take my hat off to those who do. But what the diesel preservation scene will look like in 3o years' time, I'm not sure. Less working diesel locos seems inevitable, and when locos do emerge from long overhauls, they will be the exception.
One only has to look at some of the steam engines which worked early in preservation, and how long they subsequently spent out of traffic, and how bad they had got, before they were restored again (if at all). If some of our currently-running diesels deteriorate to that extent - and some probably will, even if initially only stopped for something like tyre wear - then it will probably be game over for them. They're too much of a niche interest and the support isn't there, either from the wider public or the host railways.

To bring this vaguely back on topic... offering a discount for diesel substitutions was suggested but it really isn't a sustainable model; the key is to 'sell' the diesel to the disappointed passengers as being something rare/historic, and explain why a trip behind it is a good thing. I remember years ago when a steam engine failed and a diesel shunter (not ours) had to pull the train... lots of disappointed passengers, until the guard went round explaining that this was a rare passenger trip for a shunter, maybe the only time it would pull a train this year and that some people would pay good money to be on the train! Oh and you can walk down to the sheds and see the steam engine afterwards. Suddenly it became a positive thing and everybody went home happy.

 

Sticking to the NYMR issue, my sister and family visit Whitby annually. A trip on the NYMR use to be a 'tradition', they've been disappointed by diesels (usually fire risk subs) but been 'encouraged' by me. But last year they didnt ride because 'it was just a scruffy blue diesel' running and this year they didnt even visit having been put off by social media comments about fares and overcrowding unfortunately.

 

I would absolutely applaud anyone such as yourself putting money into locomotive ownership. I also suspect that if you got away with "only" £10k subsidy over 7 operational years, you probably got off pretty lightly. I'm sure many locomotive owners are putting in considerably more, which is why loco ownership for anything other than the smallest is really a game only for groups or the very wealthy.

At face value it looks like loco owners are subsidising railways by reducing the true cost of locomotive provision. However, there is a flip side, which is the railway is providing the infrastructure of a working railway. By "infrastructure" I don't just mean the physical tracks, signals, stations and so on, but the whole business architecture of having carriages, trained operational staff, a sales and marketing function to get passengers through the booking hall door etc. Without that, an owner wouldn't have a home for a loco, and certainly would have no opportunity to obtain running fees, regardless of whether those fees are pitched at the "right" level.

So there is a symbiotic relationship there. Absolutely the loco owner is providing a cash subsidy to the railway in loco operating costs, and that subsidy is fairly easy to quantify. But the owner is getting back an operational capability that - while it is hard to price - does absolutely have a real value. Hopefully, the two flows of value balance such that neither side feels that they are being exploited by the other.

(Generic point, not specifically directed at the NYMR).

Tom

 

Ive no connection with the NYMR but Id be extremely surprised if the average adult fare (even taking out the kids) is anything like £40 even on the current rack rate of £50 ish.
Parties, Seniors, HRA, Reciprocal arrangements will all drive down the average.

 

Was there a senior fare?, cannot remember seeing one listed. Seems to be a bit of a dying thing, especially as out of school holidays that is a large percentage of your passenger base.

 

Based only on personal observation, on my line seniors have transformed from being a minority group on penniless pensions to becoming a powerful majority group (in term time) now splashing the most cash.

It sounds cruel and hard to say - but it makes no business sense to discount such wealth when they can (and do) swell the tills.

Slight disclaimer before anyone says: Yes I'm aware the above is a sweeping generalisation and there are still plenty of low income retirees out there. However I think few would disagree that "the grey pound" is currently strong and therefore a big part of any respectable heritage railway business model for the next 10-20 years. When that source (literally) dies off, time to innovate once again.

Sent from my moto g85 5G using Tapatalk

 

You have focused on loco owners in this reply, but of course it isn't just them subsidising heritage railways - it happens in virtually the whole panoply of activities, including carriages, goods wagons, signalling, Pway, operating staff of all types, platform and ticket office staff,- and other areas too! - and that overall contribution is why we feel we rather "own" the railway, if in reality we don't. That is why a management that feels that it really doesn't need input, advice and even guidance from its volunteer workforce is doomed to failure, and the slower it is to recognise that, the faster its downfall will be.

 

I did say that I wasn't including discounted fares but neither was I including premium fares. I also worked on a figure of £6m which is substantially higher than the £4.3m traffic income achieved last year. My figures were simply illustrative and attempted to show that, with a not unreasonable fare and not impossible passenger figure, the required income could be achieved. Don't forget that the railway used to claime 300,000+ passengers and my figure was just over half of that. Without having the detail of such things as discounted fares it will always be a finger in the air calculation.

 

What you are really saying is that actually the NYMR could trade its way back to a break-even position - or better - if only its management felt able to take some advice. I might be negative at the moment, but I want the NYMR to succeed and flourish, so I hope they do listen!

 

I do think that those in Park Street are waking up to what is needed. The 60103 and Locomotion happenings are indicative of that. However, they still have a fair way to go to get the event management right. Hopefully, that will improve. For 2026, they need to be getting the fare structure right and the timetabling right and come up with some good special events. Scotsman will be a hard act to follow in terms of cash generation.

 

There has been a lot of focus in this discussion on the price and cost. The concept of value for money is extremely important (google fair value line if you’re interested) but the other side of the equation is the product. There is plenty of room for innovation in products that offer different values. What I would observe though is that the imagination is lacking. There are plenty of people out there who don’t even know that heritage railways exist, much less that they might enjoy an event on one. Some stuff I can think of doesn’t even require a train to run at all, much less a special one.
I also observe that heritage railways don’t generally exhibit much in the way of segmentation. I think that (which in essence is about designing offers or products that appeal to sizeable group of customers) could and would also yield useful results.

 

Exactly. When the components become unavailable, one almost has to re-engineer the whole system, to use modern stuff. (Something I know a little of, from my activity with old computers.)

Ironically, steam locos (older) probably have it easier. The old tech is simpler, and generally still available (with a few exceptions like arsenical copper).

Noel

 

Not seen any comments about the new TV Series.
Good Bad or what.