North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

I suspect that one was only there to move the shuttle stock back to Pickering with it being the last day. If FS is running late again they've likely dropped it to not impact further on the timings.

 

80135, 34101, 75029 and 3672 are all in bits from NYMR overhauls. 825 and Lambton no. 5 have been stripped down for overhaul by their owners. There's also D5032 being overhauled. Has there been any progress with the work required on D7628?

 

Gift aid guidance published by HMRC say that the ticket fare is a donation freely given and cannot be refunded under any circumstances. As you say, we have discussed it. However, our learned friend has dismissed this, saying DR takes precedence. I do wonder what will happen if HMRC find out. That could be an awful lot to pay back.

 

D5032 still under overhaul. D7628 currently sat there oou. 825 still needs a lot doing to it and is not being worked on every day.

 

I overlooked 3672 in my summary because a. at the moment it's not an NYMR priority an b. not a lot has really been done (no disrespect to those working on it, but I think they are still basically at the stage of dismantling the loco). Same for No. 5, only more so! Strangely, the one we both overlooked is GWR 3814 - this is privately funded and progressing slowly but if the NYMR management ever decide it has become a low-hanging fruit it might actually progress quite quickly - they didn't want it in the past, but things can change!

 

3672 should be coming into the workshops shortly, I believe. How soon is shortly, I don’t know.

 

I've read that too, but even if it does get in there, how soon might it progress? 80135, 75029 , D5032 and 34101 have all been in there for ages, and none of them seem to be progressing very fast. They don't seem to be able to concentrate on finishing even one of them, unless it is 80135 - and there they are largely in the hands of the boiler contractors, and the second in line (75029, probably) because they don't have the money for yet, as evidenced by the appeal for it.

 

How heritage railways choose to comply with the Consumer Rights Act 2015 may differ but what they can’t do is just refuse to compensate customers where the service provided is not as reasonably expected. Apart from not having the obligation to nominate an Ombudsman service they are in the same position as operators over the national network. The interaction with Gift Aid can be managed. If a Gift Aiding passenger elects to exercise their statutory rights they will be informed that Gift Aid not be claimed and any excess over the non Gift Aid fare will be refunded . The prohibition is on full or partial refund of a Gift Aid donation. If no Gift Aid claim is made there is no conflict.

 

I think in your position I'd want absolutely watertight confirmation of that from both HMRC and the Charity Commission.
The Government guidance seems pretty unequivocal:

3.39.13 It’s most important that the terms and conditions attached to an admission fee do not include a right to a full or partial refund of the admission fee. This may be in the event of bad weather, cancellation of an exhibition or mechanical failure of an exhibit. It’s an important condition of the Gift Aid Scheme that any donation cannot be repaid under any circumstances.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid​

Tom

 

can I urge you to be very careful with that statement? It has potential ramifications for every railway using, or considering using, a for, of gift aid on entry.
You can’t possibly expect your customers (a word deliberately chosen) to be allowed to resind their gift aid if it becomes clear they can make even greater savings?

 

“Under any circumstances “ is, I think, critical. As also said elsewhere , it is a donation freely given and no service is offered in exchange. If there was, it would not be a donation. It is either something provided for a fee or a donation, it can’t be both. Without reading the Consumer Rights Act, I’m willing to bet a Mars Bar that it does not mention donations. As Tom and others have intimated, dangerous territory.

 

Dare I suggest a look at this…?
And GM’s comment’s about trying to constantly try and do something different?

Not saying all is nice and sweet in the SVR garden but there seems to be a lot more positive energy in the past few years with the current GM.

 

Well that is the end of galas then, that rarely if ever run to time. A few delays over the day and I can claim my gala ticket back in DR.
Who checks that I went home at 15:00 but a mate told me everything ran 60 late and I put in a DR claim. Mainline TOC's have armies of people checking for that sort of abuse, how would an HR line do it?

 

We did all this back in February, a mere 190 pages ago! The Charities Commission guidance seemed pretty clear then and it still seems clear now, and I've still no idea how the NYMR have managed to find a different interpretation on it.

 

If I gift aid my fare, I made a donation. I am no longer a consumer surely? Since expressly I have to give without expecting anything for it, that’s the nature of a gift. I don’t see how someone who has gifted aided their fare and received the gift of a ride on a train as a thank you has formed any contract with the provider of the train service. And if they haven’t, surely consumer rights simply do not apply. There was no consideration and there was no expectation. By law.

 

Surely this is the key, you buy a ticket for the gala, not to ride on a specific service at a specific time. So long as the gala happens you have received what you paid for.

 

Have you asked the Fundraising Regulator for a view on this?

 

No different from a rail rover on which delay repay is available …
If you buy a return to Whitby you no longer (thankfully ) have to specify which train you’re returning on .
Only the NYMR ( or probably more precisely one person at NYMR ) seems to want to promote delay repay on a heritage railway and then go one giant footstep further and interpret that gift aided DONATIONS also qualify .
Will the last one out turn the light off please .

 

The point of contract is when gift aid is entered on the till and then consideration received …not the end of the day or several days later when the donor hasn’t made a delay repay claim …?

 

A donation cannot be consideration. The law says a donation is something freely given without expectation. I grant you absolutely that the person stood in the NYMR booking office fully expects a train ride, and that individuals may not understand the difference, but if you gift aid your entry I don’t see how you can have a contract with the railway for the provision of a service. I am happy to be corrected, but you gave the money, and therefore can have no expectation of a service in return. If there is no expectation and no consideration then there is no contract.