The Gwili Railway thread

Lights trains out and about and more work on the 03 and in the carriage shed. Contractors start first week in January to install the path down the middle for public access.

 

Good stuff! I notice the latest lights of the valley post on Facebook has over 150 comments and 600 likes!

 

Not to labour the point of the extension.... but there are actually a number of intangibles that are brought by extending.

- Enthusiasm of volunteers - they love an extension
- Media focus on the railway - gwili really benefitted from this with the abergwili extension.
- nothing in preservation really makes financial success but the more a railway can offer the more people are willing to travel.
- Keeps things new, more reason for people to visit or volunteer

Just some thoughts.... Tom

 

Thanks for the update & the photos Matt, VERY best wishes to you all for 2026 and thanks for all the work EVERYONE does

Totally agree with everything you've said Tom - BUT - an extension isn't the B-all and End-all for a heritage railway. Yes volunteers and visitors like a longer run. BUT passengers nowadays want to have more things to DO/SEE on a railway, not just the trip itself. Conwil would only offer about 1/2 mile further and a VERY small percentage of passengers come from the north and so MIGHT use a car park at Conwil. On the OTHER hand, passengers would undoubtedly want to see better toilets and a "proper" station building and shelter at Abergwili Junction. Plus the Dan Do shed, especially if the second phase was added would be appreciated by volunteers so that their efforts working on stock would be under cover and so last longer, plus passengers would be able to get up close to see them in better conditions. I'd certainly like to see an extension eventually but, as an ex-regular volunteer and shareholder would prefer to see AJ developed first for the benefit of most passengers. On the OTHER hand if someone wins the lottery and is willing to put MILLIONS into the Gwili - - - - -

 

I think it all depends on availability of grant funding, donors and legacies as any extension is a big ticket item. Also what the volunteers want. Some mega projects have happened over the years that probably once seemed unimaginable. Whr, gcr re unification, etc. But as you say finish abergwili rhe engine shed extension and the running set first.

Anything is possible.... llanpumsaint? Pencader?

 

Completely agree, but those are relatively short term gains. You then have to continue to operate the longer railway and cover increased fuel and maintenance costs (for both rolling stock and PW). Hopefully the snowball effect will help with volunteer recruitment (i.e. the more successful you are the more volunteers you can attract).

 

Aberystwyth?

 

Of course, desirable but would cost MILLIONS. The Gwili don't actually own the track bed into Llanpumpsaint - they stop short on an embankment just south of the road bridge. Even IF they could purchase the old station site the exact station could not be replicated as part of the passing loop extended over the road bridge but the bridge itself was halved in width due to safety concern. I agree it would be nice though to have a 8 mile line length although the time involved in a return trip would certainly put off some "non-enthusiast" potential passengers. When I was head guard and ops manager we estimated that only about 5% of passengers were enthusiasts, the other 95% just wanted a trip out, and I doubt that will have changed much as the Gwili is rather out in the "sticks". As to Pencader I don't think that is even a possibility. The track bed between Allwalis tunnel and Pencader was sold off to local farmers and most of the railway embankment along that stretch has been flattened. I also believer that Pencader station site itself is now a housing estate. A pity though.

 

Yes and no.

I'd challenge the "Enthusiasm of volunteers - they love an extension" point. Some do. I've made the point before that amongst volunteers, you broadly get three camps - "builders", "restorers" and "operators". Within those groups, the "builders" love an extension, but they aren't representative of all volunteers, just some. Once you have built an extension, the "operators" have to run it, and it is not unknown in such situations that the "builders" feel their work is done and wish to move on to something else, not even necessarily on the same railway. I think it is a fallacy to assume that an extension will inevitably motivate the entire volunteer workforce. It will motivate some, and may also cause some new people to join, but they may just join for the period of construction.

(I don't have anything against the "builder" camp, by the way - but positing an extension as a means to keep volunteers motivated is I'd suggest both a fallacy and a dangerous justification for an extension).

The other point about length is the relationship between length, stock requirement and operational frequency.

Up to about 5 miles, you can run a "1 train in operation" service while also maintaining an hourly frequency. That "1 train in operation" core service means you probably need 2 locos and two sets of carriages.

After that, you cross a boundary that forces an uncomfortable decision - either lower frequency, or more trains in operation. I doubt you could safely run a 6 mile line at an hourly frequency with one train, once you allow for run-rounds, taking water etc. By 7 miles you are probably at a 90 minute frequency (say 25 minutes each way, 15 minutes run round at one end, 25 at the other including taking water); or else you need 2 trains in operation - which adds 50% to your costs. (You now need 3 trains (2 in operation, one spare) rather than 2 trains (1 in operation, one spare). By time you get to 10 miles, you can probably still run an hourly service with two trains, but only if you also have the additional signalling complexity of an intermediate passing station, plus you likely now need four trains (2 in use, 2 spare) to keep up with the additional mileage-based maintenance. Oh, and all this requires that you have more volunteers in your "operator" camp.

But at the same time, all this additional cost hasn't generated proportionately more income - you can't easily increase fares in proportion to length, and nor will it inevitably increase passengers in direct proportion to length.

None of which is a reason not to extend - but it has to be done carefully. In particular, there are some places where you get a "step change" in costs but don't get a corresponding change in revenue - I'd suggest going beyond about 4-5 miles is one such change, and going beyond 7 miles leads to another.

Tom

 

Anyone thinking about a long railway should first speak to the West Somerset Railway Management. I expect they would willingly lose a few miles if it was possible.

 

Some interesting points raised above but would service frequency really matter when the railway at most runs three return trips a day ?

 

it depends on the model. The railway has retained single trips, eg no rover tickets. It would be possible alternatively to run a 3/4 train service a day while allowing rovers and staying at intermediate stations between trains. This was effectively the model adopted pre Covid.

 

Being in a holiday location and close to some nice beaches, I would suggest in the summer a number of families might combine a visit with a visit to the beach, so at most a half day visit when perhaps the tide is high tonamuse the children.

 

Nice reply Matt. As you know I've suggested pre-booked rovers, especially for a 3 trains a day service and not to do so make the railway less attractive to enthusiasts/supporters, myself included. Please keep up your good work on this page in 2026. BEST wishes to ALL the workers on the Gwili - on ops AND behind the scenes.

 

Yes

Happy new year. Fantastic job gwili!!! Writing history.

 

Hi Tom, My views after spending so much time building the extension:-
Use caution when considering extensions. I think volunteers love the idea of an extension. Most of the work of getting to Abergwili was done by a core team of 5 or 6 volunteers, often with only 3 of us and the road-railer doing the ground clearing, track laying etc. (especially in the horizontal rain and gales)
Media interest at the time was good but, don't forget the old saying. "Today you are tomorrows headlines, tomorrow you are yesterdays news" unless you can keep 'things' happening.
Extensions may not guarantee more visitors. I used to keep a check on the annual passenger numbers. In that first year it opened in July (I think) so we missed the start of the season but we had all the school summer holiday's etc. The annual increase in passengers was very small.
Many passenger I spoke to when they were visiting the signal box were happy the round trip was about an hour or so. They preferred that time as it allowed them to call in when passing by to/from their holiday destination or on the way to somewhere else.
The majority of passengers on the Gwili are holidaymakers. They visit specifically for a ride on a steam train. They may be pleased to see changes from last time they visited but to see any changes was rarely the reason for the visit.

 

Why not? The feasibility study priced the cost of linking Carmarthen to Aberystwyth at only £750 million, that's why.

 

Just to add to this is, a point about what may be lost by building an extension. Before Abergwili, Bronwydd Arms was the terminus with the genuine station building as ticket office/shop and he signal box. The box was open for visitors to watch the signalman at work during the run-around, chat about the equipment and the history of the line. These visits almost always resulted in money in the donation box as the visitors left. Now (as I understand it) trains no longer stop at Bronwydd and the signalman just opens and closes the crossing gates and signals the trains through the section. I feel the effects of this change are :- The visitors no longer get to see the box in operation, the signalman no longer has anything to do between trains and the donation box no longer exists. During my time there I know most of the signalmen thoroughly enjoyed the chats with the public, and many a reluctant (shy?) new volunteer who was very worried about interacting with the public slowly realised there was nothing to worry about as they were encouraged by the signalman training them to chat and interact with the public. I used to thoroughly enjoy my time in the box, I'm not so sure I'd enjoy it now.

 

It’s not untypical for a big project like an extension to solve some problems but create different ones.

 

More like £2bn now. We'll have see wait and see what happens in May!