If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by 50044 Exeter, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,775
    Likes Received:
    662
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Kent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Let me be clear: when I was a union representative, it was drummed into me that, in most cases, I would know more about the Health and Safety at Work Act than the average employer. It has been a few years since I was active in this area, so some things will have changed since then.

    I think the following may help

    Under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSWA), employers have duties to protect everyone affected by their work, including volunteers, meaning organisations with paid staff must provide similar safety standards for volunteers as for employees, including risk assessments. While HSWA criminal law primarily targets employers, volunteers aren't subject to its direct enforcement but are protected under civil law's common law duty of care, allowing claims for negligence, so best practice dictates treating volunteers the same as paid staff. For volunteer-only groups without employees, HSWA doesn't typically apply, but they still have a common law duty of care and can face civil action if negligent, requiring them to take reasonable steps to prevent harm.

    For organisations with employees (Employer's Duties)
    • HSWA Applies: The Act applies to you, covering volunteers under its provisions for non-employees.
    • Duty of Care: You must protect volunteers from risks, just like employees, through risk assessments and control measures.
    • Equal Protection: Provide the same level of safety for volunteers in similar roles and risks as paid staff.
    • Enforcement: HSE or local authorities can enforce these duties.

    For volunteer-only organisations (No Employees)
    • HSWA Does Not Apply (Generally): Criminal H&S law usually doesn't apply as there's no employer, unless managing non-domestic premises or construction.
    • Civil Law Applies: You still owe a common law duty of care and can be sued for damages if negligent (e.g., for injury).
    • Best Practice: Treat volunteers with the same care as employees; it's legally safer and morally right.

    Key takeaway
    • Employees: Protected by HSWA (criminal law) and civil law.
    • Volunteers: Protected by civil law (duty of care) and HSWA (via employer's duty to others), but not directly by HSWA criminal law if no employees exist; best practice is equal treatment.

    I do welcome this discussion since it should be paramount that everyone should be looking after everyone else while enjoying our hobby
     
  2. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    6,323
    Thank you for confirming what I already said.

    Having done that and taking into account the L&Bs position in that specifically , I assume you agree that your original suggestion regarding PPE, is irrelevant as the railway has to provide this under their legal obligations?

    You should also perhaps google the Personal Protective Equipment Regulations 2022 (PPER 2022) to understand how those obligations were also extended by this legislation.

    With the greatest of respect I did chuckle at your opening paragraph, Colin knows best which we will have to disagree on as was evident when you told us that PPE is the first line of defence. The opposite is true which is what I learnt both as an employee where H&S compliance was a large part of my role and running my own business which involved a lot of working at height, as @Musket The Dog pointed out PPE is the fallback and therefore last line of of accident prevention.

    That comment alone suggests you may not know as much as you seem to believe you do on this subject.
     
    Musket The Dog, Poolbrook and 35B like this.
  3. Seraphim

    Seraphim New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    97
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  4. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,775
    Likes Received:
    662
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Kent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Hi Peter, I don't disagree with you. After all, the last time I had anything to do with any of this was 1998, so 27 years have passed, and I suspect that H&S has evolved since then. That said, I do feel that Common Sense still has a part to play in today's working environment
     
  5. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    8,154
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Country
    The Dainton Banker and lynbarn like this.
  6. Seraphim

    Seraphim New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    97
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Let us hope that the railway's SMS fully documents that and clearly identifies the relevant duty holders. Hiding behind obscuration is not a wise tactic when dealing with ORR.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    28,633
    Likes Received:
    68,198
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I don't think there is a distinction between an "occasional' or "frequent" volunteer. If you volunteer, for example, to tend the station platform flower beds and only visit once or twice a year, there is still a responsibility on the railway to ensure that while you are working you do so in a safe manner and are adequately trained. In that specific example that is quite likely to include being trained in working at height, given the proximity of a platform edge. The frequency with which you carry out the role doesn't come into it - the responsibility is there whether you volunteer one day or 100 days in a year.

    I suspect that in reality there is probably rather more pragmatism in place at most railways over the provision of PPE than is laid out precisely in the law. For example, I'm sure that most volunteer footplate staff would provide their own overalls and boots if for no other reasons than comfort, cleanliness and convenience; but if you were asked to go into a dusty environment such as a firebox, it would be a reasonable expectation that the company would provide suitable face masks and eye protection etc.

    Tom
     
    The Dainton Banker, ross and lynbarn like this.
  8. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    6,323


    The railway has employees, so as it points out in chapter 1 point 1 is classed as an employer and treated as such, as I said earlier
    Yes it’s changed in scrutinised more than ever, you are completely right common sense does indeed have a major part to play.

    I’m confident they do as there is this snippet in one of their newsletters from 2023 which is relevant here the piece being a review of the last few years at the time, with the quoted bit talking about 2019 -
    That sounds to me like they are aware of what is required and on the ball with ensuring everything is in order.
     
  9. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    8,154
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Country
    It always bemused me on one heritage railway where I was a volunteer that, because I worked 'on a station' I had to have PTS track-side training and competency, even tho' my volunteer activities were conducted entirely indoors and well away from any running lines - yet passengers were able to stand at platform edges within inches of passing trains to take photographs!
     
    weltrol, MellishR and ross like this.
  10. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,775
    Likes Received:
    662
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Kent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Did anyone else see the More on 4 railway programme the other night with the L&BR on it, and what did you think of it?
     

Share This Page