North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

I think you need a little more patience. I am sure that things will become clearer over the next month, and I am sure also that everyone will be working both to avoid bankruptcy and to repair the bridge or reopen it to traffic asap.

£250k for temporary reinforcement is plausible depending on what needs to be done. However, I think the critical bit will be whether that’s even possible and if the river has scoured the abutment foundations then it may not be.

If it were me I would be looking at options for a) running a Whitby - Grosmont service, even if that means a temporary loco depot in the station sidings and b) reinstating a run round at Goathland or the possibility of stationing a shunter there to do shunt release. Hopefully only contingency planning, but a split service might be the least worse option and keeps the tills open. Whether you link the two with a bus service or not I don’t know.

 

There's no chance of running round at Grosmont with the bridge out of action, assuming you can get locos and stock across the bridge in the first place. Anyone got a spare mainline registered DMU available for hire?

 

I'm sure that options are being discussed. However, I'm at a loss as to how a Grosmont-Whitby service could be implemented as you suggest. If the bridge can't be crossed, there is no practical means of getting any stock to the station side of it, either at Grosmont or Whitby, even if N.R. would agree to the latter. I think the hope is that the bridge can be sufficiently propped to allow use of a single track across it but time is against any such plan as the one that the railway was previously working to has, as I understand it, been abandoned by the new civils director and a new scheme is being worked on.

 

I think any service at the Whitby end is dependent on being able to operate over the bridge - even if that was just a one-off movement to get a loco, some carriages and a shunt-release loco into the station (and which still leaves the problem, if the bridge is going to be shut for an extended period of time, "what happens if the loco breaks - or even just needs a washout?").

What work has to happen at Goathland to allow a run-round there? I think a Pickering - Goathland service has its attractions; you can still advertise that the line goes through the stunning scenery in the heart of the National Park; Goathland is a destination and Pickering is well set up to be an originating point.

If you started from scratch and Grosmont and Whitby didn't exist, someone offering you a 14 mile route through fantastic scenery ending in a recognised destination, and with loco facilities, carriage storage and visitor facilities (car park etc) at the end of the line where traffic would naturally originate from; and an intermediate passing station (Levisham) ; would be considered a pretty dialled in formula for a heritage railway! Given the hand that has been dealt, I'd be putting my operational and commercial effort into "how do we make this 14 mile line work", rather than tying myself in knots to create a 6 mile run to Whitby in which everything is less favourable.

Tom

 

I think it's a no-brainer. The difficulty is that it completely inverts (including the cost driven decision not to fix the loop at Goathland) the strategic direction of the railway over recent years. That will be, with the best will in the world, a major challenge to leadership teams who have been focused very intensely on Whitby being the key destination.

 

Yes, and they might learn something.

But even being generous, you have to play the hand you have been dealt, and business is always about adapting to circumstances. If you have been given a 14 mile line (and a pretty nice one at that), you have to make it work, not lament that it has cut you off from what you saw as your core destination. So you have to go all-in with a "make Pickering to Goathland work" strategy.

(And in at least one plausible, if not perhaps likely, scenario, it could give the current management a means in the future to refocus the line on the core section without the loss of face that would have come from such a U-turn in normal circumstances).

Tom

 

I completely agree. My concern is about the ability to manage this.

 

On paper, there is a means of running round a train at Goathland as there is a passing loop through the two platforms. However, because the station is on a significant gradient they are not allowed to leave coachess without a loco attached. As a result, any train terminating at Goathland did so in the down platform and, once passengers detrained, the train was moved into a loop south of the station and the loco ran round using running line. However, due to its condition, a single slip fundamental to that move was plain-lined last year, eliminating that possibility. Shunt release isn't easy, either. In fact, the only way that I can think of doing it would be for a train to arrive in the down platform. The pilot to come out of the up platform and back onto the train then haul it southwards beyond the loop, which would take it well into the Goathland-Levisham single line section (which would require a token) and back into the siding whchh was the loop. The pilot would then have to detach and run back into the up platform to clear the line so the train loco could move and attach to its train.. The train would then have to run back onto the running line and into the section and set back into the down platform.
Having just worked all that out, it's something that I really wouldn't want to be doing! I think the best solution would be to spend some money and install a simple turnout in place of the single slip and leave the old goods yard sidings isolated.

 

Could (although would imagine would reduce capacity further, as presumably the loop couldn't be used for passenger movements?) the line be plain lined into the loop (essentially creating 1 big loop, rather than 2 loops with a crossover in between). So train arrives, then propels back on the main adjacent to the loop and then runs round all the way through the loop and station.

 

Not knowing the layout at all, but from your description, why can't you simply re-engine the train at Goathland? Yes, it needs 1 more loco in use than trains, but at least the extra one could be a diesel so can be turned off between duties. Train A arrives with loco 1, loco 2 couples on the back, loco 1 uncouples, train A departs with loco 2, then either shunt loco 1 out of the way before the next arrival, or simply arrive train B into the opposite platform. The crucial point being that the train is never left without a loco on one or the other end of it on the gradient.

 

There's lots to unpack here from this a and previous comments. Firstly, I don't know what has been done with the bridge yet, but surely nothing can be done until the track and ballast, and the infill below, have been removed to allow the normally buried face of the masonry or brickwork to be inspected and assessed? I don't believe that propping the bridge will be a trivial exercise either so I think the NYMR is likely to the a Pickering-Grosmont operation this year, which means a likely major financial hit, and re-educating a marketing team that is wholly focused on selling trips to Whitby. Operating-wise I can see the operational problems at Goathland being used by "borrowing" a point from somewhere a Grosmont, either from the crossover on or near the bridge, or from the carriage sidings. I don't think there's much chance of an inexpensive single slip being found, and are the goods shed sidings at Goathland worth reconnecting, at least in the short term.

One thing I think is clear is that the railway will need to have its financial coat retailored to meet its near term prospects, but I hope that if people have to go some reasoned decisions will need to be taken, and the axe will need to fall where it needs to, among the office staff initially. What this crisis also represents is the opportunity to catch up on maintenance along the Pickering-Goathland section and really get on top of PWay, locos and rolling stock ready for reopening the line fully in 2028, which I suggest might well be a more realistic estimate - and by that time the exemption for Mk 1s to Whitby might have expired and Whitby services may be no longer an issue! (No alternative provision having been made and possible alternative being both harder to find and maintain, and more expensive).

One final conclusion is that the NYMR needs to rediscover itself as a heritage railway, and its decision to get rid of a lot of its more marketable heritage rolling stock looks increasingly inept. The management need to learn to look beyond the end of their noses at more than just financial results, they do not represent the whole picture.

 

Granted you wouldn’t be running round it would T and T or shunt release, but you could contrive not to cross the bridge?

I don’t disagree with your comments, all I would say is that I would look at what is possible or not. Supporting locomotives outside of the works environment that has been established is possible but perhaps not desirable. I agree that the logistics are far from easy without that bridge.

 

Installing whatever is required to create a run round at Goathland surely has to be a priority, and a simple turnout sounds very sensible.

 

Using your logic then the SVR should have already gone bust twice, and the GWSR at least once.

 

The layout at Grosmont is the challenge - the station & Whitby are the wrong side of the bridge for access to the shed. If the bridge is truly out of bounds, then that section is completely cut off.

In contrast a Pickering - Goathland operation is easier to conceive of, especially if a) proper run round facilities are restored at Goathland and b) there's proper access to the shed from south of the tunnel. The shed is accessible, and New Bridge has long been used as a sub-shed.

 

I think if you look at where the points are, any run round at the south end of Grosmont has to go onto the bridge - even if you ran round via Platform 4(? - the most easterly) you impinge on the bridge. https://www.google.com/maps/@54.435...=EgoyMDI2MDExMy4wIKXMDSoKLDEwMDc5MjA2OUgBUAM=

A shunt-release operation might be possible with a pilot stationed at the north end of the station, but that then begs the question - if the NYMR currently has no stock north of the bridge, how does it get any there? At a minimum, it would require one loco, one set of carriages and a shunter. If you can't get across the bridge, then you have to lorry the stock in - and where to, exactly? Where is the nearest place in the Grosmont / Whitby / Middlesborough area that could allow unloading via lorry and subsequent onward movement by rail? Hence my thought that unless the bridge can be made passable for at least one single move to get stock in the right place, anything at the Whitby end is a non-starter. Road transport of sufficient stock to run the service could be eye-watering, even if feasible.

And if the situation persists for any length of time, you have to start thinking just about such practicalities as where do you put coal (or diesel, for that matter) north of the bridge; how do you handle ash etc etc. The cost of building some temporary facilities such that you can handle locos within the confines of the station might soon mount up, at least comparable to the costs of reinstating a point in a loop at Goathland.

Tom

 

To illustrate Steve's point (no pun intended) here is a view of the effect of plain- lining the single slip which has isolated both the down siding and this end of the down shunting loop. If, as seems quite possible, the service for at least the early part of the coming season involves a Pickering to Goathland operation then I'm sure that Steve's solution will be seriously considered

But at present this is just idle speculation as we do not yet know the full extent of the problem, let alone how to fix it.

Peter

 

Are the NYMR Mk1's exempt from CDL? There is a lot of mainline registered stock sitting at 10A and some locos that are sitting around not doing much. None of that would need to traverse the bridge, of course, how you service it all is a different question.

 

If only Whitby's loco depot hadn't been converted into a car park/accommodation...

 

Can the NYMR afford that, though?

Noel