North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Reading about services to Whitby being considered a priority makes me wonder if the thinking is "one way". It seems concentration is for travel from the NYMR to Whitby but what value is travel from Whitby to the NYMR ? It seems that marketing is directed to travel from the NYMR to the seaside town of Whitby with little concern for the seaside visitor or resident wishing to sample the surrounding countryside and visit centres such as Goathland for the heritage that established Heartbeat, to Levisham for the chance of valley walks or to the market centre that is Pickering. I'm sure that holidaymakers in Whitby could be encouraged to see trips to the NYMR in much the same way as visitors to Fort William are encouraged to travel on the "Jacobite".

 

Much discussed previously, but seriously constrained by the available paths.

 

I've often looked at staying Whitby for long weekends usually in connection with attending a football match but it's always been expensive compared to its peers in County Durham and the North Pennines. I think even with my obvious railway interest if staying there I'd concentrate on it's usp which to me would be the town itself and coast rather than splash £50 extra for a day out in what's a (very nice) average market town. If I was going to visit the Nymr I'd probably drive to Grosmont anyway.

 

Its been discussed a lot about the amount of people using the Whitby trains as a park and ride. I've often wondered before whether the railway would be better running the Whitby trains as excursion trains (as they were going to in Jan before Bridge 42 was closed). Most of the issue has been about the people into Whitby and the fresh air coming out, and those trains then having to cross internal ones therefore causing an awkward timetable.

I wonder if its ever been considered to simply split the Whitby trains off as a seperate product and leave them in Whitby for longer. I.E scrap the early Grosmont - Whitby. The 09:20 ex Pickering stays in Whitby anyway until 12:35. You could also move the current 12:00 ex Pickering back slightly (scrapping the 14:10 ex Whitby and cross at Goathland rather than Grosmont on the way to Whitby?) and leave that in Whitby until 17:10 . The early train gets an hour and a half in Whitby as now. The later one has longer (assuming arrival at Whitby no later than 14:35, around 2 and a half hours) but customers have the choice about which option they want via prebooking.

You obviously lose the Whitby to Pickering passengers that currently travel but I don't know how much traffic there is that way, I don't believe a lot because the timings don't really work anyway in the current guise. But crucially you can put more focus on internal offerings with more paths available, while keeping the vast majority of Whitby traffic (that you can price differently with it being a different product).

Gift Aid would be the obvious problem, but I do wonder if options like this were ever really looked at when it became obvious how awkward the Whitby paths were. Whether its a good idea or not is up for debate but I just hope options like this and others are actually debated. I don't think they are these days.

*Timings based on current paths but I'm not a timetable expert. Internals would need reworking due to the moved second Whitby train, but more paths would be available between Pickering and Grosmont (in theory!)

 

Not sure why gift aid on such a timetable is necessarily an issue?

What might be more of an issue is that the rolling stock utilisation will be worse, and they may lack sufficient stock anyway. Immediate gut feel is that the costs situation would be worse.

IF there was money available (which there isn’t) you might be better off providing either another passing loop somewhere or (in fantasy world now) a section of double track either placed appropriately to free up more paths. This is not going to happen of course because there is not the money.

 

If money were not a constraint, I think investing in signalling and capacity between Grosmont and Whitby would deliver more value, and allow resolution of the current uncomfortable compromises. As I’m sure @60044 will be quick to highlight, such investment would raise other difficult issues

 

There is investment in the signalling between Whitby and Grosmont apparently going through at the minute, though not to be completed much before Spring '27, and not for the benefit of the NYMR. When I first heard about that I assumed it would open up more paths, but from what I've read about it since those paths are all for Northern Rail (or GBR by then).

 

I mentioned the gift aid because there was a lot of discussion last year about the stopping of the Grosmont/internal rover because they were not allowed to claim gift aid on it, and were only allowed to claim gift aid on full line tickets (ie Whitby). The reason being the tax man only allows gift aid on tickets that give you the full experience rather than just part of it, though worded more eloquently. So I suspect it would be an obstacle.

As for stock, they have two Whitby sets of MK1's, and internal set of MK1's (four coaches last year), the teaks (if they ever sort that out) and some spare MK1's, though not sure on the number. As well as the diner. So it would be a constraint but not an impossible one.

 

As it happens that is already in the pipeline but it is being undertaken by Network Rail not the NYMR and the idea is to increase capacity on the line for Northern rather than for the Moors. Unlikely to happen this year though.

Peter

 

Market research? Thinking about things differently? As the CEO rose from the marketing ranks you might think that, but in practice I see no evidence of it!

 

Would I? If there was to be better pathing opportunities I can't see why I would, the main difficulty I can see would be the real need for a loop between Goatthland and Levisham. Do the current declining traffic levels warrant the latter, though (although the signalling between Grosmont and Whitby is being upgraded to provide extra flexibility)

 

The other infrastructure problem at Grosmont is the sink hole at the north end of Platform 4, associated with old mine workings. Fortunately it is on Network Rail property but is of concern to them as the mine extends across the site there including under the Esk Valley line. I believe that it is another work in progress.

Peter

 

Timetabling on the NYMR is indeed a complex affair not helped by the fact that a good bit is outside the railways control. Firstly, it is not just about traffic to Whitby. There is a demand to go from Whitby and the first train of the day from there loads well. The problem for the rest of the day is lack of available paths. After that first train the next available path is the 12.35 which, because of timetabling on the NYMR, doesn't fit well with down trains, meaning it doesn't get to Pickering until about 14.38. It then goes straight back to Whitby at 15.00 and is the last train of the day to do so. There used to be a later train but that has now gone. Even with this, though, you only got 80 minutes in Pickering; not much if you want to do anything other than have a cup of tea. The 12.35 does allow you to get an afternoon in Goathland but if you want to make a day of it and have lunch there, you are too late so it sin't a good day out.
Back in the days of covid, the NYMR trains to Whitby were essentially two round trips with pre-booked seats, giving you a short time in Whitby. These were unpopular with the public who generally wanted to spend more than a couple of hours there. The morning train left at lunch time so no chance of a bite to eat and the afternoon train meant wou arrived too late for lunch, if that is what you wanted. It just didn't work. The idea of running two consecutive trains into Whitby and laying over (as in the day excursions common in the 50's) works on paper but essentially ties up two sets of coaches, two loco and two crews for a whole day mostly spent doing nothing. It just isn't sensible.

 

Which also begs the question that even if a plan was not in place, and the NYMR could offer funds why would NR/GBR have any real interest. The NYMR may be a TOC (as say WCRC & LSL are) but they will at best be a little like LUMO or Hull as an OAO, where no infrastructure or paths appear to be provided to meet their needs, just taking up "spare" space. Unless the NYMR were offering a GBR fare between Whitby to Grosmont (which must seriously undertake the pricing structure, and lead to split ticketing?) it would not be helping out network pax in any way I can see.

 

A loop between Goathland and Levisham is of no use whatsoever in terms of increasing paths. This was considered in the early days as a menas of having two train operation with an even interval of 1½ hours rather than the twp hour gaps that currently exist. A better solution would be to double track from Goathland to Summit which would effectively increase the current short section between Grosmont and Goathland to Grosmont - Summit. That then makes these section times more even. The critical section for timing is Pickering -Levisham and always has been. At the moment, for a train to run from Levisham to Pickering, run round and return to Levisham is 60 minutes and, altering the sections north of Levisham doesn't do anything for this and the only way this time can be improved is if there is already a train in Pickering ready to leave when one arrives. By this means the Pickering - Levisham section cna be reduced to 40 minutes and the critical path becomes Grosmont - Summit. Because there is no loop there is no dwell time with trains stationary whilst tokens are exchanged. It would require a signalbox at summit, though. An interval time of 45 minutes can be achieved with trains passing on the double track section. However, this ends up with trains sitting at Pickering for a relatively long time and is not efficient utilisation of locos, coaches and crews.

 

Offering a GBR fare would be financial suicide. Ive pointed out before if Whitby to Pickering were a Northern Service it would attract a public subsidy in excess of £30 for a day return.

 

The first two trains from Pickering to Whitby load well, as does the first train from Whitby, and what is effectively their returns. Because the flows are tidal, you always end up with running lightly loaded trains or having the stock sit around doing nothing.
The idea of not having through trains would not be popular. Set swaps were routinely carried out at Grosmont a couple of years ago for operational reasons and Joe Public did not like them. They get nicely settled into their seat at the start and have got the kids settled with whatever they want to play with when they are thrown out onto a platform (possibly in the rain) and have to fight with everyone else to find another seat on the forward service. Added to this, if there is a similar flow of passengers in the other direction, the platform can end up with 600+ people all trying to do the same thing. Just don't go there.

 

Tidal flows are a necessary evil on most railway lines.
Over the years, heritage railways have had to suffer countless new broom directors who decry “empty trains” and suggest all sorts of weird things.