North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Since we have no Nobel Laureates (or a Hercules) in this group, it appears as though we are faced with a Gordian knot. I have suggested before, to no great acclamation, that perhaps Whitby running is not the panacea that it initially seemed to be, and should be abandoned. It was initially sold to the NYMR membership as a means of generating extra income for forecast infrastructure repairs, using someone else's track In the event, I suggest, it has signalled failed to do that and whatever money there was to be made from it has been swallowed up by the costs of running on NR and the added complexities to internal running on the NYMR. Worse still, has (fatally?) undermined the attraction of the NYMR in its own right. I ask once again, is it really worth continuing to run to Whitby? Would it not be worth perhaps abandoning these services, or setting up a separate subsidiary operating company that would actually pay the NYMR to access the potential traffic offered b the trains arriving at Grosmont. That would be closer to realising the original aim, and the subsidiary company could use towards-end-of life Sprinters or such, which would not need run round loops. The only disadvantage would be the need to change trains at Grosmont, but the Sprinters could use the NR platform to reduce congestion, which would be the same situation as if NYMR trains connected with NR ones at Grosmont (as they did for many years!)

 

If I recall correctly (I have no time or particular desire to scroll back through several pages) it was so that those buying the gift-aided tickets could 'view the complete work of the charity', or something like that.
What I don't understand is why that means gift aid could or should be applied to the Network Rail section!
You can see the complete work from the train window on Pickering-Grosmont, and get off for a more detailed view if you like. You can also see the train, because you're on it.
Whereas, on Grosmont-Whitby, you're just on a train ride, on a train you've already seen from Pickering-Grosmont.
Given that it seems likely (barring unexpected developments) that this year's services will be curtailed south of Grosmont, I hope that the management is already negotiating with the charitable bodies to charge gift aid on shorter-route tickets. Well, either that or they have to abandon gift aid entirely, I suppose.
It does seem as though they've shot themselves in the foot, both over ticketing and infrastructure maintenance. It's as if they have chased "free money at any cost", which if you think about it, makes no sense at all.

EDIT: Sorry, a further recollection was that the Whitby trains form part of the charitable aims. In which case, that is also something that needs revisiting, if there aren't going to be any Whitby trains for the foreseeable future... otherwise they're failing on that too.

 

Speaking purely for myself, I have always avoided visiting NYMR in winter, when there was no Whitby service - 'cos it's a real destination and a very scenic part of the line (dare I say more scenically interesting then most of the rest!). But I would certainly not wish to go there in a Sprinter......and I imagine that I am not alone. Ultimately, you have to provide a journey (and rolling stock) that the potential customers want, and you can't force them into a box which happens to suit you.... James

 

Earlier this week someone posted on the Facebook NYMR Photo/Video group a photo of 80135 arriving at Levisham with a 9 coach train, taken in the summer of 1990. There was some discussion about this and the need for 9 coach trains on some days. 3672 was the usual motive power when this was needed, usually to get people back to Pickering in the afternoon but 80135 obviously managed it on this occasion. I can never remember any 9 coach trains but 8 coach ones were regular happenings back then in order to move all those wishing to travel. It would be really interesting to have a table of passenger numbers over the years but, wheras they were once shouted about, they have been a closely guarded secret for the last few years. Whether the NYMR could ever get back to the level of trafffic seen when Heartbeat was in its prime, I don't know but I'm sure that the potential market exists for people to travel to otherwise than Whitby. Back in the 80's, Newtondale halt was built to cater for walkers and it was a very popular stopping point. In my last season of driving, if I stopped there twice, that was all so something fundamental has changed. Either it is Joe Public's appetite for hiking or the NYMR's publicity machine failing to extol the virtues of going to Newtondale for this purpose. Similarly, I think Levisham is less popular than it was. Whatever, something has changed with regard to visitors to the railway and this needs seriously looking at. Unlike @60044, though, I don't think it is due to running to Whitby; I think it is something much more deeply rooted and I seriously suggest high fares and the approach and ideas of senior management are prime in this.

 

If you take it to the limit, 'viewing the complete work of the charity' would also involve being able to see the workshops, examine the kitchens, visit the management offices etc - it becomes a ridiculous situation.
I think most right minded people visiting the railway would realise that seeing restored stations, track and operating trains is sufficient to confirm that the charity is doing what it is supposed to. I see no reason why someone would need to travel on any length of the railway or see every office/storeroom in order to see that the railway is doing what it is supposed to.

 

Not being party to the discussions that took place between HMRC nad the Railway I can only go on what has been said by others but the man at HMRC was adamant aboutthis and that gift aid could only be claimed when trains ran the full length from Pickering to Whitby. To me (and others) there is no logic to this as Grosmont to Whitby is not NYMR property for joe public to view but that is what it is.

 

he was obviously an absolute numpty and should have been furiously challenged on this

 

We don’t know that he wasn’t, or what the precise basis for the decision was.

More pertinent, I think NYMR should have considered the implications of the gift horse more clearly, rather than rushing things. But that’s been debated at length.

 

But might be a better customer offer?

I wonder whether a signal box is required at Summit, tokenless block and axle counters might work with either existing box controlling the section.

Anyhow, won’t happen. There’s no money

 

It is stretching it for me to believe that the North Yorkshire Moors National Park area as a whole has lost its attraction to the general public, and that therefore the attractions within it have declined in popularity. There is some truth, perhaps, that "staycations" have continued to decline in popularity compared with cheap foreign holidays, so I'm ore inclined to the view that the NYMR has followed that trend for pricing itself out of the market by offering higher fares for consistently less of an offering. I can remember the days of 8 or 9 coach trains at Pickering and the daily shunt to add one or two carriages from the Beck siding, and then remove them at the end of the day. - seemingly unthinkable now, but why? Have we really got too frightened of shunting to be able to do this safely? It really needs a root and branch rethink, part of which must be to look at its cost base, whether it can afford its current level of staffing and what it could do to offer a more varied experience. I have previously discussed the possibility of bringing "sideshow" type attractions provided by entrepreneurial locos - the horse-drawn cart-rides at Levisham, the broom making lady at Farwath but perhaps transplanted to Levisham were all popular in the past - even the mythical Stape molasses and rum mine might be developed into something! The NYMR wouldn't need to actually make money from these activities, but they would benefit by attracting people to travel, and spend more time on the railway by breaking their journeys, and really that's what we should be really thinking about now.

 

I think the question of what the public want deserves more respect than that - and research to go with it. Those conclusions then need to inform what’s offered, and at what price.

When that is prepared, there also needs to be thought about what’s offered in terms of expectations. The challenge for NYMR this year is bridge 42 and whether it can run to Whitby - one of the key impacts will be that for the last 20-odd years, it’s been seen as a Whitby railway. Never mind why, it has.

 

Re prices, I recall when I started volunteering circa 1994/95 an all line rover was £10.90 (Pickering -Grosmont). This is the equivalent of £28.40 in 2026 (inflation calculator), often there was a £1 voucher from the back of the car park ticket. Fare to Whitby in 2025 was around £50 in 2025, thats a significant mark up in the price per mile compared to the mid 90s.

Reading further up the thread I noticed the comments about the lack of evening dinners, they used to very popular and booked up months in advance. Surely there is market still?

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I can't see that at the moment there's a management even prepared to think in those terms - I was about the add "unfortunately" but I think that's an absolute understatement of apparent complacency and ineptitude.

Like everything else, I think the offer needs to be brought up to date, with higher standard, but pricier, ("Michelin-style") cooking, and perhaps and less expensive offering. Keep the trains full by offering variety! As I said previously, the NYMR management needs a root and branch reform. I'm not convinced the present ones can do that.

 

I'm sure that there's a demand for evening diners. I think the thing that killed it was staffing. it required an extra three signalmen each day it was run, due to hours, and the railway struggled to resource that. One of the supposedly main arguments for running to Battersby was that it would only require a signalman at Gosmont, the NR signalman covering the EVL . It was also hoped that starting and finishing in Whitby would tap into a ready market. However, changes to the Northern T/T effecctively eliminated the available path and that idea died. The NYMR have now given up on running to Battersby as there's no suitabler path.

I can't remember a £1 voucher on the car parking ticket and I'm no expert on VAT but I believe it would run foul of that taxif it was done because it can be argued that part of the train ticket includes car parking, which is vat-able and that would apply to all tickets.

 

The problem with that is that Heritage Railway Inflation isnt actively reflected in the governments inflation indexs RPI, CPI etc. Stuff like the minimum wage increases from when it was introduced in 1999 to 2025 outstrip the inflation indeces by more than 100%. Humble things like a single unit of electricity was 5.37p/Kwh in 1994 my railways currently paying 24.5,
Water ditto. Coal dont even go there.
Its ok bearing in mind the purchasing power of the customer but there comes a point where the price the customer is willing to pay no longer covers the costs even in the short term and the business goes bust, if it cant adapt through other means. Id say this has affected the majority if not all heritage railways since the pandemic and youre now seeing its effects of railtours and even things like the jacobite which were once consider absolutely honeypots. Its not just a NYMR issue.

 

I have a vague recollection that in the late 80s or early 90s the NYMR timetable, or some other form of publicity, used to include some walking routes and maps from the stations, which I'm sure encouraged will have encouraged the walking/hiking fraternity to enjoy a day out combining a day's walking with a ride on the train. To be fair, the website does include a bit, eg https://www.nymr.co.uk/newtondale-halt-station - but it does lack anything to encourage people, with no pictures, maps etc.

 

There may be a market, but can they resource it? There's a lack of casual staff available for catering these days, and do you want to be finishing up at Grosmont at 10-10.30pm if you don't live locally? As @Steve said, there's also signallers and train crew to factor in as well.

At least the timings for the one evening service advertised so far mean that it's possible to get an NYMR service from Whitby and a Northern service back again afterwards.

The menu is the same as the daytime ones as well, so you're not going to entice people that way. There's no flexibility in what the railway is willing to offer - the GCR have 7 different menus over the next few months for lunch and evening services, at a variety of prices, none coming close to the NYMR's.

Another issue is that the diner can only accommodate just over 100 passengers, which isn't a lot for essentially a 6 coach train. Capacity is below what the GCR and Bluebell run with despite using more vehicles. That's not going to help with costs in the slightest, as it then means you're using a larger loco than necessary, or bunging a diesel on the back if no. 29 is used.

 

The clientele from the 1980s is still clientele today, but no longer yomping over the hills so readily being 40 years older. I exaggerate the problem slightly, but the population is older.

 

It may not be the he same generation nowadays, but has walking declined in popularity? If anything, I'd argue the other way - people are staying active till older now, and fitness in all its forms s more popular than ever - but's still a question of persuading them to use the railway as a means to access fitness possibilities - and then it all comes back to market research and advertising!

 

The Bluebell Pullman set is 4 vehicles: a Brake 3rd (with wheelchair access); a Kitchen 1st; a Parlour 3rd and an LMS Stove R as a support vehicle. Together they seat 100 people (of whom up to 3 can be in wheelchairs - there is loose seating that can be swapped in and out as required). The tare weight is 137 tons, which is within the load limit we allow for a loco like the O1 or H class (both class 1P) despite our reasonably sustained and steep gradients. For evening trains it is more likely that you get a bigger loco, but that is just to do with the daily diagrams - the loco of the "A" service normally takes the evening train on a Saturday. The smaller locos take the Sunday lunchtime one, which helps minimise the cost of lighting up a loco for just one, or maybe two, days. In seats / ton, it is quite an efficient setup given the luxury and the need to have a kitchen car in the consist.

We also have a second set of four Mark 1s, the "Wealden Rambler" set, used for catering. This is similar tare weight, and seats 125. It sees service both as a train for teas, and also for evening fish and chip / curry / pie and mash type services. Again, the weight is such that it can be hauled by a class 1 loco.

It would not be unusual to have four dining services on a weekend - a Friday afternoon Rambler; Saturday afternoon Rambler; a Saturday evening Arrow and a Sunday lunchtime Arrow. Looking at the website, we are running the following dining trains in the four months from March to June:

Pullmans:

• 14 Evening Golden Arrows
• 2 evening Murder Mysteries (essentially a Pullman dining service, but with actors playing out an interactive play on the train).
  
• 15 Lunchtime Arrows
  
• 1 Valentine's Day Arrow
  
• 3 Pullman Fish and Trip trains
  
• 1 Cheese and Wine train
• 2 Pullman Breakfast trains
• 1 Fathers' Day special

New for this year is a "Sunset observation" service on three evening trains in high summer, with a passenger service on the LNWR Obo added to the evening train. That feels like a good option as it can run at very little marginal cost but offers another revenue stream on a train that is running anyway. That adds another 28 tons to the tare weight (and no doubt some carriage shunting each weekend - shock horror!)

Rambler set

• 26 Wealden Ramblers
• 8 evening Fish and Chips trains
• 1 Mothering Sunday Rambler
• 1 evening Pie and Mash train
• 1 evening Curry Train

That's 76 dining services in 4 months - a pretty intense utilisation of the stock.

Tom