North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

I may be wide of the mark but I genuinely believe that the Whitby problem in part is because holiday makers used to spend a day on the railway and then a day in Whitby. Now they do both on the same day. And with prices as high as they are you are unlikely to get many doing a repeat visit. I thought the 12 month ticket was an interesting idea but again, it wasn't managed well. The pricing was silly for a start. Maybe if you'd had it as a free or discounted repeat visit within seven days then fair enough, but 12 months for the price offered was ridiculous. As a result it of course got stopped by inflating the price sky high compared to its previous offer and i suspect not many sold last year. Not because the price is wrong now, but because it was wrong at the start. Bad messaging!

Its been said before but if you go back to the days Philip Benham was in charge there were many smaller events throughout the season. These days the events have largely disappeared other than the Diesel Gala in June, and the Steam Gala at the end, and not a lot else. The railway backed away from running the Wartime weekend because it wasn't making money out of it (due to not managing it properly IMO) and despite that event now being run in Pickering again, the railway didn't even collaborate to run an extra train or two. Between Whitby, Goathland and Pickering there are many events on through the year that the railway just don't seem to get involved with. I'm not saying they would all individually make bucket loads of cash, but in the main trains are already running so it wouldn't take a lot extra you would think to use those to bring in, or god forbid, transport some customers to and from them.

IMO the railway really need to start working more with the community around it. How is it that they employ all these people in 'advertising' yet fail to have relationships with the towns and businesses immediately around them?

 

I agree. It would be interesting to see a HRA analysis of sector wide trends. Personally I suspect

(a) incomes and tastes and relative prices have changed. What does a weekend in N Yorks cost relative to a weekend in Prague or a week relative to a week in Fuengirola?

(b) the infrastructure is even older, the rain is falling harder (as someone almost said), the civil and mechanical maintenance costs have risen in real terms and coal....

Possibly the NYMR's cost structure and location ( relatively far from the day out market) puts it in a particularly exposed position but I can't believe most of the drivers are unique to one railway. Slightly like the position of virtually all League 2 football clubs but without the prospect of foreign owners coming in. Not unlike the Canal and Rivers Trust.

 

There are many squeezes on people's pockets. Cost inflation for the railway but the effects of sustained high inflation at up to 10% together with food and fuel increases makes things harder. Add on the effects of Trussonomics driving up mortgages over a couple of years, and people are cutting discretionary spending on days out. They want value for money.

Older people who regularly travelled in the shoulder season may be less inclined to visit due to mobility problems, there may be a demographic effect. Many are on waiting lists for the NHS and this may prevent travelling.
Others may be travelling to more exotic locations such as Laos or Vietnam to make up for time lost to covid.
The pandemic and war/inflation and Brexit have changed things.

 

Good luck to any railway trying to pretend the tourism market is what it was in the 1990's, or even pre-covid, particularly the longer lines. There was recently a post here about Alton Towers in decline, there was feature on the news the other day about zoos struggling etc . The world has changed, people may blame covid but I suspect it would have changed regardless.
I suspect that internal services on the NYMR need to have some dining option to make them viable with steam, be it breakfast trains , lunches, afternoon teas etc. Have some standard seating tagged on for those who just want a train ride. Either that or it's the low cost DMU option .....

Jon

 

I suppose when all is said and done perhaps the situation is as simple as this… heritage railways cannot be run as cheaply as they once could (fewer volunteers, especially with key skills, rising costs especially energy) and people don’t have the money they did (a flat economy for 15yrs and the same rising costs).

There are lots of good ideas in this thread. They probably all need consideration and multiple of the best need to be actually tried. I doubt there is a silver bullet. That said I think learning to communicate well is the biggest single imperative. It could unlock so much. With it people want to be involved and to help. Without it….

Perhaps they need a consultant to tell them how? My day rate is very reasonable

 

Is your night time tariff cheaper?

 

It's not just the NYMR with a problem bridge.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y5p3ydj22o

 

I have always felt that the NYMR is far to long. And then it extended into Whitby! Totally crackers!
The longer a railway is the more does the infrastructure maintenance cost, it needs more motive power, it needs more of everything.
These remarks could apply to a lot of other railways too.

 

As a generalised comment , given that the "ideal" heritage line should be no more than ten miles long with a destination of interest at one end, I agree but, what is your advice on reducing the length of the existing railway? Which bit do you want to abandon? As soon as the NYMR started to run to Whitby they uncorked the bottle and it would be very difficult to put it back.

 

Maybe it is too long, but ideally a heritage line needs to go "somewhere"otherwise it is just a train ride. That is not always possible of course but then you may be able or lucky enough to create a connection to the National Network, which in theory brings in more people (although I personally remain to be convinced if this is actually true).
The NYMR is lucky enough to have a "somewhere" and only Whitby fits that bill, and yes it comes with not only the usual "lets extend" costs, but also NR running associated costs. But for good or bad it appears to be where people are prepared to pay to go to, otherwise they would not be the fullest trains day in day out.
As @brennan said what do you shorten it to? Whitby to Goathland (which operationally impossible it seems because of the gradient) or just Whitby to Grosmont a couple of times a day?

 

Perhaps it is time for the NYMR to accept it is running 3 services and schedule trains appropriately; these are (1) Pickering - Grosmont (2) Grosmont - Whitby and (3) through Pickering - Whitby services. Service (3) could be provided either by extending the necessary Pickering - Grosmont services or by instituting a changeover at Grosmont thus operating Grosmont - Whitby trains as a stand-alone operation. It seems the current problem is that by feeding the Whitby service it has diminished the basic Pickering - Grosmont service and affected its connections with both Goathland and Levisham; by diminishing Goathland I would suggest it has also diminished the Heartbeat value thus supporting its own demise. The NYMR has ignored its core operations thus contributing to its own demise and perchance needs both a new head and direction to serve its core local community.

 

It’s certainly long in journey time. However, in terms of infrastructure I thought the benefit of going to Whitby was that in effect you got the destination without the responsibility for the additional infrastructure maintenance. (You do still have the additional rolling stock maintenance by virtue of the greater mileage, of course).

The difficulty perhaps is that it turns out there is no such thing as a free lunch: the NYMR may bear no responsibility for maintaining the last six miles of their route, but that free lunch has come with a host of constraints!

Tom

 

I agree that they should make more of Goathland’s screen fame, but surely Harry Potter is the big draw these days, and even that might be tailing off a bit. But just look at the crowds in KX waiting to get a pic by the 9.75 sign, and similarly Glenfinnan. Seems like a big opportunity going to waste?

 

They don't have to pay for the track maintenance but the engines all need TPWS (which isn't cheap) and there are track access charges for that section. Combined its still not likely as much full track maintenance but its definitely not free.

The NYMR's problem is those charges are now there but they aren't actually carrying any more passengers than they were before they went to Whitby. And with the way Whitby has now become the dominating factor they can't afford the shock factor of letting it go. And in fairness why would you get rid of your most successful product?

This is about marketing and salesmanship. They need to settle on a pricing structure and stop mucking around with it year after year, put together better offerings like other railways have (be that more different sized events or upgradable products (proper first class, better dining options, smaller dining on more trains (ploughmans, cream teas etc), and simply sell them properly. I'd bet there is a bakery in Pickering they could team up with. I also don't understand why they have never talked to Capplemans about Fish & Chip specials.

Steam railways are an experience product. They need to make memories. The better the memory the more likely of a return. There is loads of potential in the NYMR that is no longer tapped. It just needs a management team that can see it.

 

These permutations have been discussed at length before, and rightly dismissed.

The practical reality is that Pickering - Whitby has become the dominant service on the line. Grosmont is not a good place to change trains, especially if you have to get between platforms 2 and 3. A large part of the demographic involves family parties, and the whole business of changing train, with disruption and risk of losing seats, is a significant deterrent. When the journey to Whitby is (with parking and boarding) 90 minutes longer and £50/head more expensive than driving direct, the incentive to keep driving would be very strong.

That means that segregation of (1) and (2) is in reality simply not viable, and the restrictive infrastructure of the route is always likely to make for sub-optimal compromises.

That means driving demand into the Pickering-Grosmont section needs careful thought. Whitby has supplanted "internal" demand, and for many families, Whitby running means that two birds can be killed with one stone. While I'm sure more can be done to promote Goathland, it is a small place that has relatively little to see or do if you don't have walking boots. I'm sure Heartbeat has its followers, but the last new episode of Heartbeat aired in 2010, so relying on it to drive demand is pushing nostalgia to the limits.

These are difficult challenges, and deserve not to be under-estimated. I suspect that, had Whitby running not been reinstated, many of these would still be pressing. My criticism of the leadership is therefore not that they are struggling, but that they seem in such denial about where marginal profits might lie.

 

'Experiences' don't need to be spectacular or expensive and whilst I appreciate the bridge issue at Grosmont makes it impossible at present surely an affordable 'Rail Trail Explorer' ticket would be popular?

A single from Grosmont to Goathland for say £12/£15. Follow the Rail Trail on foot back to Grosmont (ie downhill) and include a £1 voucher for the Grosmont buffet to get some secondary spend when the footsore customer gets back. That's £25/£30 for a couple for a steam train ride, a nice walk and a discounted tea and cake on their return. A simple, affordable 3/4 day out.

 

This is unfortunately true, and no I don't know which section to abandon and would rather not be at the centre of a controversy by suggesting one. What I am quite certain of though is the current situation is not sustainable and will eventually come to a head. Then a decision will have to be made by the management.

 

The only real difference in NYMR timetabling between pre Whitby and post Whitby is that some trains continue beyond Grosmont. Until 2024 there were essentially the same number of trains/day at roughly the same times, all serving Grosmont, Goathland and Levisham. 2025 was, admittedly different as the Gold T/T had gone so one less train/day twixt Pickering and Grosmont AND the lunchtime diner no longer carried non-dining passengers, affecting 4 days/week. That latter move has probably had more of a downside affect. Goathland remains a popular destination.
I have lost count of saying on Nat Pres that Grosmont Whitby as a stand alone operation may be operationally convenient but it is a nightmare for passengers and is not popular with Joe Public and platform staff who have to bear the brunt of the complaints. Avoid at all costs.

 

I wonder what HMRC would say to a tea and cake voucher being included with the vat free rail ticket? Now who do I know that I could ask?

 

I believe there has been a theft of lead roofing at Pickering station? Really upsetting for all affected by such behaviour.