Project for short heritage railway beside busway Dunstable

The business plan for the scheme

A business plan is under preparation as requested by Dunstable Town Council.

The draft business plan is divided into into three sub - divisions which are :-

1 - the costs for creating the rail link
2 - the associated depot costs and
3 - the associated office costs

Plus, there will be sub - divisions covering the basic business disiplines, some of which have 'roots' in the first three
4 - Marketing
5 - Human Resources Management
6 - Finance

The draft of the business plan sub - divides the task of setting up a heritage railway in to three 'stages' -

1 - securing the necessary infrastructure (the land, the track when the remainder is lifted, setting up a company and getting the Section 192 planning permissions (based on old railway powers in 1855 Luton Dunstable and Welwyn Junction Railway Act 1856 Luton Dunstable and Welwyn Junction Railway Act transferred to Luton Borough Council under Statutary Instrument 3118 of 2006 then transferred to us under Section 42 triggering development rights in 1995 General Permitted Development Order);

2 - developing the basic infrastructure up to a standard when static display becomes possible (rolling stock displayed in sidings, museum displays in vans or portacabins etc)

3 - and working this infrastructure up to being able to run trains (TWA application, installing signalling, training staff, insurance etc).

The above sub - divisions create 'threads' of cost of the rail link, depot and office costs and the business disiplines which run through the three stages of the securing the infrastructure, development of the infrastructure and bringing up to operating standard of the infrastructure.

There will be some descriptive material at the start of each stage describing the current (or projected in 2 and 3) state of play with regard to land, organisation etc.

The supreme goal is a railway museum and depot at pallet store with a short running line along the adjacent disused line. There will be sub goals within each stage relating to the achievement of securing the necessary infrastructure (1), developing the basic infrastructure up to a standard when static display becomes possible (2) and and working this infrastructure up to being able to run trains (3). Achievement of the goals will be measured by scores at the end of each stage and at the end of the business plan.

There will be material on the benefits of achieving the supreme goal.

What would be very useful is any notes on the likely running costs of the rail link, i.e. fuel, maintenance and insurance costs.

 

Can't you get a job on the railway at Luton? Can't be hard. Most of the station staff there seem to regard upright walking as an aspiration?

Question time:

From what you've said, you'll need at least 30k to lease the site, plus the costs of purchasing the materials you want from the demolition of the existing railway.Where's it going to come from?

How long do you think it will be before you are able to run trains? take a look at how many years it takes other start up operations to get an LRO. Until you get one, you won't have an income. So multiply that 30k several times.

Where's your working DMU?

Market - who are you trying to kid? Half of Bedfordshire gets to ride on a standard gauge multiple unit every day, when they commute to London!

Sorry, but this is an unrealistic dream. Hopefully, the council will shoot it down when they see your "Business Plan"

 

I don't like to dissuade someone who obviously is very passionate about his 'pet' project, but the OP does have a certain, um, track record on other internet forums, seeming to specialise in chasing laudable-but-ultimately-hopeless dreams.

It is very easy to write letters to councils and for them to sound encouraging, but the crunch - as always - comes down to cold, hard cash. Spending £1000 so far is one thing, but that career in fast food isn't going to be able to inject the hundred times (and much more) that which will be necessary to get this off the ground. Sooner or later the council is going to want the OP to put serious money where his mouth is.

As others have said, riding a few hundred yards between a deprived housing estate and a bit of nice countryside is sadly not what successful preserved railway is made of.

Good on you for following your dream, Alfred, but the Luton-Dunstable route isn't going to reopen. Just accept that, let it go and spend your odd £1000 on schemes that could really benefit from that kind of sum - like helping to return the unique Class 15 and 28 to working order, or 'new' schemes that are already off the ground the railway museum at Rushden, etc.

As I'm sure many other active preservationists will confirm, it's much better for both the individual and preservation overall to be part of a successful team than to be the 'head' of an enterprise that is just not feasible.

Otherwise I fear you are going to end up with very, very empty pockets and nothing but 'what ifs' to show for it.

Don't simply dismiss the advice that others are trying to give you in good faith, eh?

 

This story sounds like one of the pitches in dragons den !

Alfred, I wish you best of luck, If you pull this off you'll have pulled off a tough one.
I hope your confidence in your posts here matches up to the requirements of reality otherwise you may have spent too much money with no reward.

I have to be honest I dont see "making money" here, and unless your plan is a local musuem / skills centre rather than a landmark tourist attraction hoping tourists will come from London I dont see how this can work.

I guess in the same "catchment area" of North London your competing in the same league as Chinnor, Quainton and Epping / Ongar. The latter of which has a substantial line and DMU's but isnt running this year and is probably closer a kin to your suggestion and as many would say.. "has many long years ahead of it". London and railway tourism is a poisoned chalice... even a line in the centre of Zone 2, 5 minutes from the Olympics at Woolwich didnt get off the ground... and in fact sank the railway museum it was supposed to add value to with it !, then look at Southall PG before it... there's a reason there's not many preserved railways so close to the capital.,.. it's too costly and those living around it can easily travel to a better place.

I think you do need to look at sources of funding before you go much further, I would imagine more than any other section in the business plan the council will be looking at this section in more scrutiny !
If they see you have serious funding (grants, external finance etc) and a growth plan to match the aims of the business, as well as proof of local support (I.e. businesses, people giving credence to your idea), you stand a much better chance.
If they see there's no money and no plan to obtain it other than "organic growth" and there's no real research to the idea beyond practicalities of a setting up a railway.. to be honest it will end there.

You need to not be seen as "playing trains".. it the business plan is "Railway engineering training", "local skills training", "local historical awareness" , a plan for apprenticeships etc etc it sounds better and stands a better chance at any funding.

I suspect that the council may be playing you in their plans for the busway.. by incorporating your ideas into their plans, they can show in the future how they considered all options and local awareness, but ultimately this idea failed through no fault of their own...

Good luck I think you need it !

 

You've got to look out for your own future as well. Fast food is all very well, but that £1000 could have been invested in your future - in learning skills - and could have repaid itself many times over. Get yourself set up for life first!

 

Wow...

 

Alfred Roberts is involved with the DMU in the picture linked below:

http://daves-trains.fotopic.net/p54155942.html

...As noted in his posting on another group:

 

Having encountered his postings on other internet forums, I genuinely admire the OP's drive and enthusiasm.

It does make think he could achieve great things if he directed that level of undoubted determination towards part of an existing project, as part of a team, than what seem like hopelessly over-optimistic projects with him being regarded as the 'main man'.

As for the 103, I remember reading the unfolding story on that with growing incredulity. The words 'barge' and 'pole' spring immediately to mind. :-k

 

If Richard Thornton is involved surely the Dartmoor Railway would be more appropriate.

Bob.

 

O/T - r/e the class 103 DMU...

For details of the movement of the power car M50397 from Swansea to Great Yeldham by Essex Transport Museum Society.

Go to http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/P ... essage/716
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/P ... essage/711
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/P ... essage/717

R/e trailer M56160 at Bodfari - I have been told that its owner Mr Richard Thornton has now been released from jail.

I understand that Mr Richard Thornton has started work on the trailer at Bodfari (which is as stated) illustrated on fototopic, BUT Denbighshire County Council planning enforcement officers are considering mounting a prosecution for failure to comply witht the planning enforcement notice issued on October 03 2003.

The work on the Helston Diesel Group class 103 continues apace.

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I shall of course look carefully at some of the advice about funding for the Dunstable proposal.

I didn't say it was!

one comment I would make is the 30 year gap there in age!!!!!!

That would be a good description of our plans although the stated aim of the 2007 to 2012 tourism strategy is to attract visitors from outside of the area and this attraction - the only standard gauge railway in Beds or Herts area - will do that when up and done.

These bold quotes are exactly my aims!

The high cost of site clearance (track removal etc) and the very low value of the recovered items has led to Luton Borough Council taking over the task of site clearance from BRB Residuary LTD. Luton Borough Council has said that these materials will be disposed of at very low rates - Luton Borough Council comment as to the cost of retention of materials was the cost incurred by their contractor etc, rather than their having any value.

Once this - admittedly very short - line is completed, once the A5 bypass is built then there is the possibility that we could extend the line. This would be via a reinstated bridge across the by then former A5, then a short line beside the council offices and fire station to a level crossing across Brewers Hill Road, then alongside the driveway along where the old railway line leading to the industrial premises nearby and out into the countryside beyond. We could certainly make it to link up with the Sewell Trail along the old railway line - if not beyond.

 

Once the first section - admittedly very short - of line is completed, once the A5 bypass is built then there is the possibility that we could extend the line. This would be via a reinstated bridge across the by then former A5, then a short line beside the council offices and fire station to a level crossing across Brewers Hill Road, then alongside the driveway along where the old railway line leading to the industrial premises nearby and out into the countryside beyond. We could certainly make it to link up with the Sewell Trail along the old railway line - if not beyond.

As you could imagine the cost of the High St North - A5 bridge could be high - somebody did once say that starting from the old railway buffer stop at High Street North, you were into a million for the new bridge which would be needed across the main road. BUT the cost could be drastically reduced by salvaging the materials from one of the old railway bridges along the Luton to Dunstable railway line (say from Church Street bridge) - the steel spans, sides, decking and tracks and the blue bricks from the abutments, which would be sold off at scrap prices or sent to landfill (the cost of demolition has already put paid to BRB Residuary LTD's interest in only lifting the track on the Luton Dunstable line themselves so cost for materials would not be high).

This method is said to be a good way of cutting the cost to the Bluebell Railway of reinstating Ardingly viaduct (they got some steel spans etc from a road bridge project in 1990s).

But there could be landscaping issues at High Street North, as after the demolition of the old railway bridge in 1969 this has become an attractive area. Then there are the space issues in reinstating a single track through the land to Brewers Hill Road as the old station at Dunstable North was demolished in 1970s (a lot of wriggling as there is only just space), and some of this is used by car parks for the council offices nearby.

If the line was to extend across Brewers Hill Road then a level crossing would be needed. The materials for this could be salvaged from the existing level crossing on the Luton to Dunstable railway line across Court Road. The materials would otherwise face the same fate as the rest of the old branch line - scrap or landfill.

The Dunstable to Leighton Buzzard rail line was about 7 and a 1/2 miles long, although there are some housing developments along the old track bed near to Leighton Buzzard and the installation of any modern signalled junction with the West Coast Main Line would be a problematical and expensive business, in about 20 years it could be theoretically possible to run as far as Stanbridgeford station and ultimately to run about 6 and 1/2 miles out from Dunstable to the outskirts of Leighton Buzzard, through some very attractive scenary. (Problem being the A505 road across the Sewell Trail and then the A505 road along some of the trackbed beyond Stanbridgeford station).

Given that the location is only 30 miles from London, there are no other standard guage railways in Bedfordshire and no heritage railways at all in hertfordshire, I think that the location has tremendous potential.

Try to reply to that.

For pictures of the disused line to Leighton Buzzard see

Welwyn to Leighton Buzzard
http://www.lostlines.fotopic.net/p24800944.html
http://www.lostlines.fotopic.net/c753257.html

Dunstable to Leighton Buzzard
http://disused-rlys.fotopic.net/c923788.html

Sewell Cutting
http://www.southbeds.gov.uk/leisure_cul ... tting.aspx

Stanbridgeford
http://clutch.open.ac.uk/schools/greenl ... rth3a.html
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cj.tolley/rjd/rjd-035.htm

Local History

Dunstable history
http://www.localhistories.org/dunstable.html
Luton history
http://www.localhistories.org/luton.html
Dunstable Town Council
http://www.dunstable.gov.uk/pages/About%20Dunstable.htm
http://www.dunstable.gov.uk/pages/heritage.htm
http://www.galaxy.bedfordshire.gov.uk/w ... meline.htm
http://www.houghtonregis-tc.org.uk/info ... infoid=218
http://www.houghtonregis-tc.org.uk/info ... infoid=269
Chiltern Downs Gateway Centre
http://www.gos.gov.uk/goeast/news/newsarchive/565453/
http://www.architype.co.uk/chilterns.html
Grove Theatre
http://www.grovetheatre.co.uk/
Priory Church Dunstable
http://www.achurchnearyou.com/dunstable ... -st-peter/
http://www.dunstableparish.org.uk/ptrrhint.htm
http://www.galaxy.bedfordshire.gov.uk/w ... church.htm
http://gallery.nen.gov.uk/gallery52-.html

 

Well I wish you all the best. It's your time and your money! :smt086

 

Re: Response Luton Borough Council proposed heritage railway

The track along the Luton to Dunstable line is still in situ if that helps?

 

Re: Response Luton Borough Council proposed heritage railway

I like the way he starts a new topic every time as if to hide the million (sensible and well thought-out) negative replies telling him just how blatantly ridiculous and pointlessly unworkable his plans are. La la la la can't-hear-you-fingers-in-the-ear-time, NatPres style. Stick to flipping burgers, Alfred, and stop wasting the council's time. You do realise that if a genuine heritage project were to attempt to start up in the area, the memories of your bungling would mean the council wouldn't want anything to do with it?

p.s. why is this in Diesel and Electric Traction?

 

Two threads merged and moved to "Heritage Railways" forum.

Thanks for the spotting this, James.

Richard

 

It would be interesting to speculate on what would happen to the heritage railway project if the Luton to Dunstable railway was re - opened after all this time and all that has happened, or if it had been re - opened in 2004 - 5 as proposed by Laing Rail and referred to on the e-mail group. http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/D ... essage/202

It is worth answering the question : What would the effect of abandonment or curtailment of the bus way scheme be on the heritage railway project?

In a letter to me in 2001 BRB Residuary LTD stated that in the event of the bus way project not going ahead then the company would want to investigate further 'transport' uses for the land along the Luton to Dunstable railway line. A heritage railway line using antique rolling stock along a short length of the line on a occasional basis would not qualify as a 'transport' use.

In 2004 Laing Rail put forward a proposal to re -open the Luton to Dunstable railway line using diesel trains to provide a 15 minute frequency service throughout the day. http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/duns-news/R ... .757846.jp This would of course qualify as a 'transport' use for the land as BRB requires.

There is a common view that if the proposal had come to fruition then it would take the place of the heritage railway, exemplified by the following comment: "Personally, I wish Laing Rail's proposal in early 1994 had come to fruition".

If you read the article carefully, Laing Rail was suggesting a rail service starting at Dunstable's White Lion Retail Park, with an intermediate station at Chaul End and/or Dallow Road to a branch line railhead in Luton (the article does not specify where).

But in Laing Rail's plans the railway between White Lion Retail Park (beside Court Road) and High Street North would remain abandoned. (Probably because of the extensive track renewals and track modifications needed along this stretch, and the high cost of land acquisitions and modifications needed to provide a station at High Street North, balanced against the low projected usage from the deprived nature of the 'Northfield' ward served by this section of the railway line).

In 1994 when the multi -modal redevelopment study examining options to redevelop the disused Luton to Dunstable railway line was presented one option examined was to extend some of the 'Thameslink' trains to start at Dunstable. But judging by Laing Rail's decision, based on the deprived nature of the Northfield ward 'Thameslink' (or whatever they are now called), which is a 'commuter' railway that operates a service from Bedfordshire and the South to London, would have even less interest in operating the White Lion Retail Park to High St North railway line than the locally facing 'Laing Rail' option.

So the section of the disused Luton to Dunstable railway between White Lion Retail Park (beside Court Road) and High Street North could theoretically become the 'heritage' railway section.

This length is arguabley the best along the disused Luton to Dunstable railway line for such a purpose. From Court Road it runs through the beautiful Dunstable Park along a wooded corridor that has been an area of developing ecological interest since 1990s and is a designated county wildlife site, then after a brief sojourn in the woodland at the cutting beneath Dog Kennel Path, the railway runs along a wide corridor of open grassland at the South face of the Triangle that has been a designated county wildlife site since the 1990s, before running back beneath the trees along the embankment approaching High Street North.

There are the obvious obstacles of developers interests in the line to surmount. But compared to the planning situation in the 1980s* this problem has eased in recent years. To begin with the disused railway corridor has been an area of developing ecological interest since 1990s and is now a designated county wildlife site, so it now seems to be unlikely that any housing along the South face of the Triangle would be approved. Also the land now a designated passenger transport corridor and so such a housing development could be problematic unless the land was re - designated or space was left for a single line railway, the old railway powers contained in the old railway acts of 1855 - 59 would appear to require the latter option.

Turning to the stretch of line from South Apex to Court Road, there is a public right of way running along the disused railway corridor between Court Road and Dog Kennel Path alongside Dunstable Park so there is little to be gained by adding a second along the course of the old railway line. Like the remainder of the disused Luton to Dunstable railway, the land is a passenger transport corridor and the disused railway corridor in this area has been an area of developing ecological interest since 1990s and is now a designated county wildlife site, so it seems unlikely that any of the old railway land near to Court Road could be included in development plans for the Park beside Court Road.

So given obstacles to any other form of development, in the event of the bus way project not going ahead the heritage railway could be in a good position to take advantage of the opportunity presented along the section of the disused Luton to Dunstable railway between White Lion Retail Park (beside Court Road) and High Street North, given the lack of interest in the Dunstable line from Laing Rail and likely lack from anyone else.

Such a deal would have to be done with BRB Residuary LTD who currently own the line.

The line was mothballed after closure on 30 April 1989 and like most of the closure during the run up to rail privatisation in the late 1980s the track was not removed.

The section of line between Telford Way (start of A5065 Hatters Way) and Skimpot Road was replaced when A5065 was built in late 1980s (it followed the original railway alignment) and then the branch was closed only two years later. This is over half of the old railway line, although the track along the rest is pretty ancient.


*In the 1980s when the housing at Crabtree Way was built there was a space left between 70 and 74 which would judging by the layout of the estate there be ideal for a further access drive way to more housing built on the old railway line (then used by just one train per week to the oil depot) [see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dunstable ... =1&dir=asc]

 

Anyone can throw cheap abuse around!

Some have been in favour of the scheme and others against about 50 % - 50 % in fact.

In fact the reason for the new 'thread' was to draw attention to the significent development in the scheme. They have now been merged anyway.

My friend, what is your active contribution to preservation in UK or elsewhere?

 

Momentum first - slow I must admit at the moment, but we shall see!