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Saphos: Blue Peter to Carlisle - 12/02/26; Sir Nigel Gresley - 11/03/26; Britannia - 8/04/26

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by dmr, Dec 15, 2025.

  1. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    On my travels to Germany I have found it to be a simple “Hallo” when alerting people who are in the shot.
     
  2. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    Some horsepower calculations, using the RPS spreadsheet, NR measured gradients, my GPS data (northbound) and Graham’s posted log (southbound). All the usual caveats about inherent uncertainties with values given to the nearest 25 and an estimated uncertainty of ±50 to 100HP.

    Grayrigg North (MP13-MP26)

    13 miles in 12m 40s (average speed 61.5 mph). Average EDHP = 1575

    Shap North (MP31.5-MP37.25)

    5.75 miles in 5m 42s (average speed 60.7 mph). Average EDHP = 1850

    Shap South Upperby Br Jn – Climbing Summit (MP67.75-MP38)

    29.75 miles in 29m 22.5s (average speed 60.8 mph). Average EDHP = 1475

    Shap South Eden Valley N Jn – Climbing Summit (MP48-MP38)

    10 miles in 9m 10.1s (average speed 65.4mph). Average EDHP = 1825

    On a climb with a constant gradient, a train travelling at constant speed is said to have reached the “balancing speed”, the speed where the forces trying to slow the train are being exactly matched by the force being exerted by the locomotive. This condition is very useful as it helps to reduce/eliminate some of the approximations introduced when calculating the power output. During the climbs to Shap, in both north and south directions, 60007 ran at “balancing speed”. On the final part of the northbound climb speed held steady at 51.5 mph, whilst on the upper part of the southbound climb speed was 66 mph.

    Southbound (gradient = 1/125r, speed = 66 mph). EDHP = 2125

    Northbound (gradient = 1/76r, speed = 51.5 mph). EDHP = 2400

    These values, although exceptional, were sustained for relatively short periods and are not a measure of the loco’s sustained capability. I don’t have any IHP (the power being produced at the cylinders) vs speed curves for an A4, but the IHPs in both cases were likely to have been in the order of 2700-2800.

    Overall, a great day, exceptional power outputs, top times, skilled crews and a fantastic locomotive. Can A4s climb hills? You bet they can!
     
    3ABescot, Fred Kerr, 242A1 and 3 others like this.
  3. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Whilst your comment may be correct within the rules, from experience not all of your industry colleagues see it like that.
    I remember a tour at KX on a Saturday evening (I suspect from York) where I was a steward. Passengers were told by station staff they were not allowed to take photographs, or go on Platform 2 (tour on Platform 1) yet those same staff were more than happy for regular travellers to stop and take images on their phones. Or being at West Drayton (when it was an FGW station) and being told after being questioned as to why I had not got on the train that had just left, that my ticket only allowed me on the platform until the next train arrived not to wait around to photograph a tour which was running slightly late.
     
  4. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    Well, didn't intend taking this long to post Part 2 of 60007's run but things to do, places to go, but have finished the report of an excellent day out.

    For the record, the 3 Class 8 Giants of Steam Southbound Climbs of Shap were:

    To the Climbing Summit, mp38
    71000 Elapsed Time: 41m 57s; Summit Speed 44.5.
    60532 Elapsed Time: 36m 59s; Summit Speed 58.7.
    60007 Elapsed Time: 33m 42s; Summit Speed 57.0.


    To the Plateau Summit Board, mp37 1/2
    71000 Elapsed Time: 42m 39s; Summit Speed 41.7.
    60532 Elapsed Time: 37m 27s; Summit Speed 63.6.
    60007 Elapsed Time: 34m 13s; Summit Speed 60.2.


    Both 71000 & 60532's timings were from the GPS as it was pitch dark. My GPS had its moments on both runs but there was no option but to use them. I adjusted them a bit after using the Elevation to confirm the summits. 60007's was totally hand timed.
    71000 had the poorest conditions on the day; as well as the easing near the summit for the speed restriction in place after the previous week's derailment.
    60007 had the best of the conditions.

    Cumbrian Mountaineer 11th March 2026 Part 2; Shap to Crewe


    Shap Summit to Lancaster


    After No.7's record run to Shap, back to the business of hand timing as far as we could as the mileposts were still just about visible. The expected charge down the 75r never happens these days. Back in the day 78-80 wasn't unusual. By mp36 we'd got to 65.6 and then to 72 as we crossed Scout Green Path. Speed held at 70 to the end of the 75r at mp33. The gradient eased to 146f but still speed was held around 70 down to Tebay South, the start of a mile+ of level track. Speed was allowed to drift down to 64 to mp30 1/4, where the gentle southbound climb to Grayrigg starts at 425r. It's short and nothing like the northbound bank. The 425r continued to mp28 1/2 and we did hear a bit of sound as No.7 was worked a bit harder to get to 66; then after 1/2mile on the level, to 69.3.

    The climb was interrupted then by the mile at 777f past Low Gill. James used that well to get us to 72. What followed was a mile of 204r to the summit at 26 1/4, the post in the loop. We heard more of No.7 on this short climb and despite being worked hard, the climb bit enough for speed to fall back to 67.9 as we passed mp26 1/4. I had to give up hand timing then, so the rest of the times and speeds are off the GPS, checked by hand timings at stations, signal boxes, crossings, identifiable buildings, viaducts and junctions. It's down grade most of the way to Lancaster from Grayrigg. Sadly barely a sound came back to Coach 9 other than the chime whistle at SW points. We passed Lambrigg on the 106f at 71, but the brakes came in and we ran down the 131f at pretty much spot on 70. The falling gradients continued and we passed through Oxenholme Lake District Station at 69.6, the notes from the chime whistle echoing around. We did hear that.

    Down the mile of 111f we briefly got to 72.3 but speed was 71 ish down the 392f/153f. On that we ran through Hincaster, mp15 1/4, at 71.5; then on the final bit of 173f, through Milnthorpe, mp13 1/2, at 72.1. as with Grayrigg, there's no real Yealand Bank southbound; just a mile and a bit of 293r after a couple of miles of level track where speed fell to 66 at mp12; then to 63.7 at the start of the 293r. We heard a bit of sound as we sort of attacked the bank, passing the summit at just under 65. James let the A4 get to 72.5 down the 134f towards Carnforth but the brakes checked us just before the old Mainline Station. We saw mp6 1/4 on the end of the old platform, passed at 59.

    All falling gradients now and we passed Bolton-le-Sands LC at 63.2 and Hest Bank on the level mile, at 61. Half a mile past Hest Bank there 2 miles of 469r and 3/4m of 305r to Morecambe but as we were stopping there for water, we couldn't have fun on that. We crossed Morecambe South Jn at 38.5 and drifted over the Lune Viaduct, 305r, at 25.8 before going around the back into Platform 5 at Lancaster. Time elapsed from Carlisle was 72m 2s, 4 late even after the record climb of Shap. Tight timings.

    Lancaster to Crewe

    Back in the day, the final 72 miles of the day down to Crewe was a fun run with speeds in the mid 70s for mile after mile. Not the same in 2026 but its paradise for an A4; lots of gently falling gradients, level sections with a few short climbs, including 106r/104r and 98r. The latter starts where we rejoin the mainline after the restart from Platform 5. We slipped quite a few times with 71000 and 60532. Tonight was dry which was a great help. What of No.7? long blast of the chime whistle and James slowly lifted the train out of the station and across to the mainline where, yes, we slipped. A few more slips followed. 1/2m in we were doing 19.8 with James well in control. According to the GPS we left the climb at a creditable 34.2.Down 3 miles of 739f we passed Oubeck - saw the rails of the loop - at 60.3; crossed Condor Viaduct 4 miles out at 67. No.7 wasn't worked hard on the 4 miles on the level. We passed Bay Horse, almost 6 miles out at 66.6ish. speed dropped a bit then the A4 woke up and we crossed Wyre Viaduct, 8 miles out at 69. On the mile 1/2 of 1199f we did briefly get to 73.1.

    Not going to be a mid 70s night. Garstang is close to 11 1/2 miles out on the 1042f, we passed it at 68.8. think James just let No.7 run down the 1142f as speed stayed around 69. Bit of excitement then 14 miles out: 2 1/2m of 644r then 2 1/4m of 1115r, if that's a gradient! We lost 4 mph on the 644f. Barton and Broughton loop is the start of the 115f. We passed that at 65.5ish and no doubt as we weren't far from Preston, speed fell to 49 as we ran onto the 2 1/2m of 503f. Boring then as we slowed to 28 then 18 on the 173f at Fylde Jn.

    Noisy chimes through the station, 20.3 then a bit of noise as No.7 accelerated to 47 down the grade to Skew Bridge. We heard a bit of noise as we hit the 440r. We passed Farington Curve Jn at 51ish, and Farington Jn at the end of a mile of 106r.No.7 accelerated up the 314r, Leyland 63.7. then on a short 100r, to 67 just before Euxton Jn. On the mile of 936f we got to 74.1. bit of noise on the mile+ of 114r, left at 64; then on average 300 ish for 2 miles, speed fell to 62.230 2/4m out. Back to 73.4 down 115f after Coppull Hall; but checked down the 104f down to Wigan North Western, 66.3.

    39 miles out down a few miles of 417f we got to 74.5 and crossed Golborne Jn at 76.8 on 473f. All downgrade to Winwick Jn, held back to 73 ish. We passed Dallam Branch Jn at 66; then heard a bit of noise on the 1010r to take us through Warrington Bank Quay at 71. 51 1/2m out we hit a series of rising gradients; close to 2 miles of 567f, left at 60; 1 1/2m of 180r, left at 62.7. then after a mile+ of 330f, Weaver Jn in middle, 72.1, we hit 75 then took 74.1 onto 1 1/2m of 330r. In the middle we passed Acton Bridge at 69.5 and left it at 71.2. 3/4m of level saw a drop to 71.6; then on a mile of 440r we passed Hartford Jn, 59m out, at 69. We took 66.8 onto the 1981r. We passed Hartford at 65.5 and got back to 70.5 down the 360f. We were going well on the 2m of 419f, but No.7 was eased down to 29.9 as we approached Winsford, 8 minutes early, passed at 24.5; then down to 7.7 on the 2220r. Probably close to a service train.

    We were wondering if we'd be held outside Crewe as being early there was a fair chance we'd have a problem crossing all the running tracks to access Platform 12. Regulars on steam specials back to Crewe in the day will know we called the final gantry before Crewe Station 'Snooker Gantry' as you have to pot a red before you get a colour. Still a bit away and there was a bit of noise echoing around as No.7 accelerated up the 1 1/2m of 300r, left at 52.9. Bit more climbing at 616r/411r, left at 57.7 took us onto the 4 miles of level to Crewe station. It looked good as we were still doing 52 2 miles out. Then just after Coalyard the half expected dreaded brake application brought us to a stand at Snooker Gantry. Not many trains came out or went in.

    We were held up as long as Ronnie O'Sullivan took to win a couple of frames in his heyday; 13 minutes. Consequently we arrived in Platform 12 some 4 minutes late.

    An excellent day out with No.7. Amazing how a locomotive designed and set up to run on the more or less flatlands of the ECML climbs superbly in the Northern Fells.

    Bit of trivia: The Greyhound Thing

    The Duke set the bar high with a serious amount of 70 mph+ running:
    Northbound: We passed 213 quarter mileposts at 70+.
    Southbound: We passed 145 quarter mileposts at 70+.

    We expected the free running bigger wheeled No.7 to better the Duke. What we got was:
    Northbound: We passed 152 quarter mileposts at 70+.
    Southbound: We passed 134 quarter mileposts at 70+.

    So, on the Mountaineers 71000, was a clear winner in the Greyhound Derby.

    Note: Due to the rough riding issues above 65 mph with 60532 I haven't included Blue Peter's totals. Don't think we had many 70+ quarters.

    Many thanks to:

    Saphos and LSL for facilitating another unassisted train and for not increasing fares alarmingly. Hope it broke even. As I said before, it's great to travel in such beautifully restored carriages with clean windows inside and out as well as opening toplights.
    The Sir Nigel Gresley Locomotive Trust for providing No.7. The A4 looked superb and performed to the standards we have come to expect.
    LSL's footplate crews who more than did us proud all day. Skilful driving by Matt northbound and James southbound, more than ably helped by their excellent firemen, Kian and Jack, who made sure they had all the steam they needed when they wanted to produce a high performance all day.
    The support crew for efficiently managing the water stops and coa deliveries/loading at the Upperby stopover; our guards, train manager, stewards and Buffet Staff who looked after us well all day.
    last but not least, Network Rail for letting us still have proper steam on the mainline in 2026 in decent paths. Ran like clockwork all day - apart from Snooker Gantry!

    Footnotes

    1. Many thanks to those who posted all the superb photos and filming footage on NP and YouTube. We were tail end charlies on the train and really appreciated the sights and sounds we didn't see or hear much of on the day.
    2. Well, we thought it was all over with the third and final Class 8 based at Crewe. But of course we now know it wasn't and we have another Cumbrian Mountaineer with the first of Crewe's Class 7 slight smaller Giant of Steam, 70000 Britannia on the 8th of April. Hope we are nearer the locomotive!!!
    In between we have Saturday's Shap Mountaineer where we'll get the chance to see how well 60163 Tornado is performing in 2026. Heavier load so will be interested to see how the big beast performs on the Cumbrian Fells with a southbound S&C and Wilpshire Bank to boot.
    3. I've dropped the Carlisle to Shap Comparison Table in pdf form below. Might drop in Lancaster to Crewe if I can match enough of the GPS data. Need to give my GPS a good talking and reset it. With a bit of luck 70000's return run will be in daylight well below Lancaster. Time will tell.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    It's good that we have the technology to estimate climbing speeds at locations such as Wilpshire when we are not even on the train but it is so rare to get detail, simply because, Belmond aside, there is never anything worth reporting nowadays for all the obvious reasons. That's not to say that people don't get a reasonable day out but the same people miss out on so much from the dual motive power model. LSL is establishing itself firmly as the team that can do both!
     
    Julian Jones and 3ABescot like this.
  6. 3ABescot

    3ABescot Member

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    Yes, there was a lot of that a few years ago. I've had similar experiences at Carlisle and Fort William.
     

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