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Air smoothed merchant navy

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by tobes3803, Jul 3, 2009.

  1. James

    James Part of the furniture

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    Who wants an A1? It's only a larger Blue Peter.

    Who wants a Clan? It's only a small-boilered Brit.

    Who wants a Grange? It's only a Hall with smaller wheels.

    etc etc etc
     
  2. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Too right Spamcam81. So far as new builds or equivalent I personally only have the Brighton Atlantic and now this possible original MN on my list, when I come down off the fence and decide if I want to support the UK or the German steam preservation scene over the coming years. What could be a fairly fast overhaul of three cylinder coal fired 03 1010 awaits in Germany if I feel I can ever face up to regular visits to Germany again. Although as I have already mentioned I feel the MN project, if there really is to be one, could be too big and over too long a timescale for me. The other locos mentioned above just don't interest me, although I fully accept they must be the focal point in the lives of those who so dearly want to see them up and running.
     
  3. 8RPH

    8RPH New Member

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    As an expert on materials procurement, amongst most other things, would you care to give us the details of a supplier where you can get these large steel sheets so easily then for future reference?
     
  4. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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  5. tfftfftff86

    tfftfftff86 Member

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    Shirley the best people to ask about MN sourcing and practical maintenance issues are those who have been restoring and operating the various BB/WC unrebuilts for the last 30 years or so. Just ask nicely at Swanage or Sheffield Park.

    This is the third page of posts on this topic, a lot for such a short time. There's also the sheer number of light Pacifics, of both configurations, popping up almost like mushrooms on preserved lines these days. The Bulleid fan club has numbers, resources and dynamism, it seems to me. Probably something to do with the fact that the locos ran mainly out of Waterloo, Victoria and Charing Cross, past the homes of many who have grown from fascinated kids into well-heeled movers and shakers.

    This makes me think that if an owner of a non-operational MN were to announce such a project, he'd have little trouble getting donations and volunteers to cut his costs. Yes, I think we'll see this before we see a Clan class, unless of course that becomes an SNP cause celebre, which I doubt as the project is based in Somerset, and the loco's propsed name couldn't be less Scottish and more Anglo-Saxon.
     
  6. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Part of the furniture

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    I still think my guesses for converstion would be Shaw Shavil since Ian is trying to sell it or possibly components can be used from 249 Sqaudron (Not all obviously) as it is also still up for sale.
     
  7. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

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    If this thread was to donate £1 per word, there would be a decent start to the funding!

    Sorry Bryan, my choice for number / livery would indeed be British Railways Blue with 21CXX numbering. Of course none ever carried that, but why not?
     
  8. Edward

    Edward Member

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    The MN's are like the 9F's. Cracking engines, still sitting rotting 20 years after they came out of Barry, as they are too big for most heritage lines. The MN's are worse off, as they are too heavy.

    The "unrebuilding" project is the most interesting idea I have heard in a long time. I feel that Bulleid was way ahead of his time. Oil baths take maintenance out of the hands of the driver. This is very much a trend with modern traction. My understanding is that the problems with them were as a result of the poor quality materials available in wartime and post war Britain. Modern chains don't stretch, (which threw the valve events out of sync), and packing materials are available that will keep water out of the oil bath. I've not heard of problems with the mechanics of unrebuilt WC's in preservation.

    The steam reverser on these engines is an absolute pain, and must have caused problems in service. At the Moors, we have had the Q7, and presently the Q6 with this system. It is a dream on them, and saves you a lot of physical effort. However, the cut off adjustments on an engine working very hard at low speed are minor, and a few % out will not make much difference. Essentially, you set the reverser, and drive on the regulator.

    With a high pressure, high superheat engine, working at speed for a considerable distance, the opposite is true. A spot of "reverser slip", where you suddenly give the engine 20% more than you meant to, could tear the fire apart. Bulleid got this one wrong.
     
  9. spindizzy

    spindizzy Member

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    One thought about the steam reverser, does Tangmere still have hers? If so she turns in some great performances for such a poor design.
     
  10. dhic001

    dhic001 Member

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    The concept is a good one, and one that I feel is worth following. However, there are a number of complications. As I understand it, there were three batches of locomotives built, the early ones (21C1-21C9), the late war ones (21C10-21C20) and the BR ones 35021-35030. Each batch had detail differences, resulting in quite different appearances, so which batch do you rebuild from, and what period?
    Well, if we are going to the expense of making cylinder patterns and the like, why not do one of each batch. Say 21C9 Shaw Savill, in the early form, say 21C11 General Steam Navigation of the middle batch, and maybe 35022 Holland America Line of the BR batch. That would result in 3 different locos being restored, all able to carry different liveries, while still leaving a good number of rebuilds in preservation. I know its an expensive proposition, but it would be a good way of getting three locos back in action.
    Daniel
     
  11. Pesmo

    Pesmo Member

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    and if they do reverse engineer one of these, what problems will they need to address ?

    Oil bath leakage obviously ?
    improving the wear characteristics of the valve mechanism ?
    The exhaust smoke problem ? - subtle modern aerodynamic enhancements perhaps ?
    Hammer blow from the later design of wheels ? (obviously new ones would be expensive)
    Forward visibility from the footplate ?

    Then what 'modern' improvements do you make in addition to any required for mainline access, if any ?

    Anything else ?
     
  12. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    I think getting just one original MN back will be a massive task, let alone three.

    So far as modifications are concerned I guess they would have to happen to get reasonable route availability at "normal speeds", and remove problems like smoke obscuring the drivers view which I imagine would not be good for today's railway. Another one not mentioned would be a higher capacity tender. That would really alarm the purists, (with good reason I have to agree), but to have a loco with a comfortable 100 - 120 miles range between watering stops would be of great help. I know that when we did the overnight Hamburg - Osnabruck run with 012 100-4 maybe 7 years ago, we had a very short platform water stop at Bremen going South, (fire hydrant job I think). And I don't think we took any water at Bremen going North. Around 150 miles each way. But a circa 7,200 gallon tender.

    Such mods and others would be needed, (IMHO), because an original MN surely has to be for the main line, and certified for 90mph, if that level is to be set by Tornado, (officially I mean!). That would give a "new" 8p pacific capable of hauling 12 car trains at speeds that still don't totally integrate into the modern railway, but at least makes getting a pathway a little bit easier.

    Chatting here about this assumed project is all well and good. But we really don't know anything about the proposal, (if indeed there is a really serious one). About those behind it, what their true aims are and whether they have any financial backing at all yet. I am sure there are people like me around looking for a project to support, (although I do have considerable misgivings about the eventual cost and timescale of this one). But more substantive information and contact points would be good! Not that I would jump in immediately if there was to be a well set up and well thought through project. I still have my German pacific loyalties to consider first.
     
  13. Broomhalla

    Broomhalla Well-Known Member

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    I think, i know normally a foreign concept, that depending on what they want the unrebuilt merchant to do will help decide which Style to go with. i.e. widows peek or the standard front.

    So far all I've heard is from the article in RM, not that the idea hasn't been bounced around in conversation. And personally i would love to see a unrebuilt merchant. It would be a huge undertaking but then so is restoring a Barry hulk and it could offer one of the many merchants that won't be restored a chance to steam in anger again.
     
  14. peter

    peter New Member

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    Just wondering, does anybody know how many of the unrestored Merchants still have there original cylinders with the pockets in the valve chests for the valve operating lever as per original? I know 35022 still has both of hers, while I think Im right in thinking 35009 has at least 1 later BR cylinder that doesnt so would be difficult to unrebuild.

    Hope Im making sense, not my strong point #-o
     
  15. tfftfftff86

    tfftfftff86 Member

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    Look at the pics of Tangmere on the "Clag of the Year" thread, and I think you'll agree that subtle enhancements may not be enough to cure these related problems. Insisting on high-quality coal would be a start. An unrebuilt MN with a mainline ticket would probably be so sought after that good fuel would be affordable.
     
  16. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Once most people have been be hind her a few times how many people would stump up the extra cost of going be hind her with better high-quality coal. Higher priced tickets may make people think twice before booking too many main line tours be hind her? A possible idea would be to try and fix the drifting smoke problem when she is under construction?
     
  17. tfftfftff86

    tfftfftff86 Member

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    How much money does an average VSOE day trip behind Clan Line make for the operator?
    A fortune, a small fortune, a satisfactory return, not a lot, breakeven, a small loss, ....?
    How many extra tickets, or how much on the price per ticket, would you have to calculate in to cover the cost of good coal?


    As well as Tangmere, there are photos of Taw Valley hindering the crew's view with clag, so would any necessary redesign change the loco's appearance significantly? The point I want to make is that any unrebuilt engine does need to look like an original Merchant Navy to find acceptance, and it might in the end be cheaper to control what you're burning rather than what you do with the exhaust.
     
  18. 8RPH

    8RPH New Member

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    A comprehensive selection maybe but as with all suppliers the widest sheets they do in 16 gauge, 1.5mm, are 2m. The Duchess streamlining required sheets 3m x 2.4m. I'm sure Impala with his vast knowledge will come through for us though and let us know a supplier that does steel sheet of this size off the shelf.
     
  19. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Impala has a proven track record for being 'right' on this forum; often to the annoyance of those who seek to discredit him.
     
  20. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

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    Cladding an original Bulleid really doesn't need sheets that big! 4' x 2' will do!
     

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