6024 King Edward 1

There's no defined limit. It is usually considered that four is a sensible number on most locos but I can think of those where three is more realistic and others where five and even six can be on board without getting in the way. At the end of the day it is down to the inevitable risk assessment. On the NYMR it is four but an inspector can overrule this.

 

I think that is essentially confirming what @Steve said. In that paragraph, the RAIB isn't stating an externally-mandated limit; it is saying that the Strathspey Railway had defined a limit in its own rules (presumably having gone through a robust process to do so) but then had an incident in which a causal factor was that it had broken its own rule.

That seems to me basically in line with how regulation works in this area: the regulators don't set generic limits, but they do want to see that (1) you have a robust process for managing risks and (2) having defined those risks, you follow your own procedures that thereby arise. So they won't mandate "you can only have four people on the footplate" but they will raise an eyebrow if your own rules say four, and you then have an incident in which five or more were present.

I'm not a trained risk assessor, but I suspect in British practice, if you followed a robust risk assessment process, I can't think of any steam loco where you'd reach an opinion that 5 or more was safe, certainly not while hauling a train, and in some cases you may mandate fewer. (Some of our loco risk assessments only allow 3). Equally, I suspect 5 or 6 would be more acceptable on, say, some large US locos with much roomier cabs. Cab footage I've seen of the Big Boy seems to show 4 seats, and space to stand behind that. But not many Big Boys in the UK!

Tom

 

We tend to think in terms of steam but, on many diesel locos, five people can easily be accommodated; and I don't mean just main line ones. At Middleton last year we had a visit from two Railway inspectors and we took them up the line on a diesel shunter. There were five on the footplate, all sat down, and there was room for another sat and a couple standing well out of the way of the driver. We also have an ex BR Sentinel steam loco, probably the smallest ex BR steam loco there is and you can lose six people in that. At the other end of the spectrum, we have an ex LNER Y7 where the cab is so narrow, depending on your size, it is easier to get off and walk round if it's stationary and you want to get to the other side of the footplate so two is a sensible number as a third person stood in the middle tends to get toasted. We have a general rule of three on the footplate but it is flexible when needs arise at the Traffic Managers discretion; assessments being one occasion.
Coming back to the Strathspey incident, I don't think the cab was overcrowded so much as those on board created a distraction and it was outside the rules. The LNER pacifics do have relatively large cabs and I'd be happy carrying five people in them.

 

You can get a full mainline support crew on there if you use the corridor in the tender too. Allegedly...

 

In June 1994, on an LCGB railtour there were 7 of us on the footplate of 4-8-4 P36 0050 from after the Ukrainian border formalities to Lviv, Lvov, Lwow, Lemberg (whichever you want to call it!). On the driver's side there were two seats side by side with the driver and pilot man. On the fireman's side there were two seats with two firemen(!) - one operating the injector and the other the mechanical stoker controls. A third fireman was in the tender pushing coal down into the mechanical stoker. I think there were 4 tip up seats attached to the front of the tender. I sat on one and a well known Bluebell driver sat on another. So in theory we could have had 8 people on the footplate all seated plus the fireman in the tender pushing the coal!!!

 

That's all very well for the driver but makes life very difficult for the fireman. The driver stays in one place but the firemans job entails him moving about the cab, needing room to swing his shovel and also keep a good lookout from his side of the loco. That's not impossible with five people but it is not easy either.

Peter

 

Do I take it that you don’t like giving up your seat to strangers, Peter?

 

Seat? They are for the old codger known as the driver. Those of us at the coal face think the "fireman's seat" is where the footplate passenger goes to be out of the way - but when there are two people to occupy it it doesn't work very well. It's a hard life being a fireman

Peter

 

There is also the trifling matter of if something happens on the footplate there needs to be a means of escape in a hurry. I am thinking of at least one blowback incident 120919_B042012_Wood_Green.pdf with three people on the footplate of 70013 and two needing hospital treatment.

 

From the way it has gone recently - starting afresh with new frames on at least two new builds now apparently proceeding soundly and clear comment on others -
problems with having the original records for checks for specification in design and installation to fulfill that all present and demonstrable to fulfill safety and insurance requirements has been quite a hurdle.

If you have not kept them and got them accessibly organized so it you can readily produce them to prove it, you may be reduced to producing a complete redesign and reassembly with all the details from scratch like finite stress calculations - not a small thing that you can take for granted and deftly do, at best time consuming and likely expensive. Possible to mitigate if you can replicate or repair something with grandfather rights from established use. And computers can help: they will do
complicated repetition exactly but must be combined with horse sense :they can throw things badly if fed wrong data, the right terms in an equation but the wrong order or, of course, the decimal point in the wrong place.

 

Hengist is one, which is the other please?

 

I don't know which locos are being referred to to - perhaps the 47xx is the other? - but Hengist's new frames have hardly been validated yet, in that they haven't turned a wheel yet in earnest!

 

I have a vague memory that the Patriot project had to do a major strip down and reassembly of their frames, but don't think it was actual replacement.

 

Hengist's frames were replaced some time ago after they were found to have errors. The current set of frames being worked on is actually the third for the loco after the originals were scrapped by BR before being completed, then the first set cut for the new build were scrapped and now the current ones being worked on.
I don't believe the 47xx has had replacement frames - just the ones that were cut at the start of the project.

I agree Jim - it was a strip down and rework, but not replacement.

 

When built, the seats were for driver, KGB to monitor the driver, fireman, KGB monitor for the KGB driver monitor....

 

OK, I was keeping out of this as my memory is vague on details, but back in the late 90s a friend and I were visiting a heritage line in Germany somewhere, where we were hauled by a small loco across some pleasant but unexceptional countryside (I can't actually remember if it was steam or diesel hauled). We ended up chatting with one of their volunteers, who said "our main line loco is at xxxx station today". We'd never heard of this (no decent internet info in those days and certainly no smartphones) but he offered to drive us over there, so we bundled ourselves into his car and drove to wherever-it-was, where there was a large German tank engine in steam, and a single carriage, as part of the town festival. At some point they decided they had enough people for a ride; we thought we were getting in the carriage but oh no, they uncoupled that, and everyone piled into the cab. We then went for a trundle on the German main line, out of the station and into a siding and back, with a cab full of punters. When I say full, I mean you couldn't swing a cat. It was a large cab, and there must have been 15-20 people on board.

I somehow don't think that would happen in the UK, even back then.