North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

There's also the problem in that there's no proper road access to Grosmont, nor any space to expand maintenance or storage facilities. That's going to limit what you can do from that end. What really needs to happen is the Esk Valley line gets resignalled and a loop goes in at Sleights, so the frequency of Whitby services isn't entirely constrained by Northern services.

 

I received a communication today, which is self explanatory.
"I read the National Preservation forum on the NYMR.... I am getting concerned people might think the poster called Richards who has recently been quite uptight about another member is me. As I don't have a profile so can't post, would you mind putting up a post clarifying Richards is not me, i.e. the NYMR driver Mark Richards."
Job Done.

 

There's a lot to digest from posts over the last 24 hours. I remain of the opinion that Whitby traffic will remain the main source of revenue both to and from Whitby but there remains a substantial number of people who don't want to traverse the full length of line for various reasons. The NYMR's on-line booking system does not help with encouraging those short journey visitors in my opinion and I am becoming more and more convinced that it is actually doing more harm to passenger numbers than good. It may be good to have people paying up several days before travel as it provides commitment whatever the weather turns out to be on the actual day. The tempter for this is a much reduced fare offering. That fare offering has got to be a commercially acceptable figure from the Railway's point of view otherwise it would be pointless. However, for those wanting a journey that doesn't fit the limited on-line offer, the advice is to pay on the day at the booking office and pay a much higher cost compared with the on-line tickets. I suggest that more people might tbe encouraged to travel if the expensive tickets were discontinued and all tickets were similarly priced pro rata. It might even be more commercially better if on-line bookings were not encouraged and pay on the day became the preferred option. At the recent HRA conference railways were told that people were making last minute decisitons to visit attractions and, if the on-line discounts are no longer available for last-minute decisions, that is going to discourage travel.
It's a known fact that a significant number of people want to purchase single tickets, both to do the Grosmont- Goathland trip and a walk back and to do the Whitby-Pickering trip by train and Coastliner bus journey back but these are not encouraged in any way. The latter gives people a long train journey and overcomes the problems of a timetable that isn't exactly convenient. It's also a cheaper option overall than an all-train journey. Newtondal Halt is another loss in terms of passengers. It used to be aimed at ramblers and was relatively well used with people getting off there and walking to Goathland of Levisham or vice-versa. I don't know what todays usage is like but I remember that, in 2024, I only stopped there just the once. Its use needs to be encouraged.
Then we come to what is the attraction of a trip on the NYMR. It may well be to have a scenic train ride but I'd suggest that the biggest draw is still a steam locomotive yet the Railway's management use every opportunity to put a diesel up front. It may be necessary to introduce diesels due to dry weather or steam loco shortage but dry weather has been the case since at least 1976 and, until recently, in dry conditions, steam was still used on the majority of services, even if it entailed diesel assistance between Levisham and Goathland. Of the four 'Firecon' conditions, only Firecon 4 was diesel only. I believe the four conditions are now reduced to three so there is less leeway. As regards steam loco shortages, there seems to be no real attempt to overcome the problem.
The number of train services in the peak used to be eight each way but that has now been reduced to six and the normal train length seems to have been reduced from seven to six coaches. That indicates a substantial reduction in demand, especially as, in times past, trains tended to be full for the most part. I may be wrong but I believe that, given the right offering, that demand still exists. The reduced T/T also works against people breaking their journey and visiting the intermediate stations.

 

I chose those two because there is a lot of heritage stock at these railways. You have always made an issue over the NYMR focussing on Mk1's. My point being there is in my opinion no "correct model" for a heritage line anymore. You have to go with what you got.
The GCR, SVR and ELR may run more enthusiast events than the NYMR, but they run for many more days when they are reliant on the general public. The NYMR ones may be successful, but does the railway publish profitability stats for them? I would be surprised if they will not even give annual ticket sales (as reported on here.)
The diesel event will always be difficult it seems as it has been said the NYMR rules do not allow translator locos and hence you would need to hire in air braked stock to attract those that like modern traction and hence raise the costs of the event. Diesel folks seem far more picky of loco types at a gala it seems.
People do get the train from Swanage to Corfe, but the greatest percentage appear to be those that have parked at the P & R and have either stopped at Corfe on the way in, or do so on the way back. I do not think that many, if in Swanage may decide to pay £22 for a train ride when the bus is £3 or free, or use the car they have probably come down to Dorset in.

 

Yes Embsay is the coach tour line and Bluebell always seems to have lots of non railway specific events, such as the ice skating, which even worked during a gala the other year.

 

The point surely is that the NYMR, like all heritage railways, attracts a cross section of visitors with a range of interests. They are not all in North Yorkshire just to take a day trip to Whitby or use the dining train but imho the NYMR's management have not woken up to that reality and seem to have more or less focused their efforts in those two areas. Broadening the scope of what the railway offers is nothing more radical than "diversification" - and actually does not diminish the potential attraction of having, and being able to use more vintage stock. the only problem is that a policy has been taken of settling for a minimum of teak carriages and turning away others as they have become available - and that is something I personally find reprehensible for a supposedly "heritage railway".

 

I've always thought a big advantage of purchasing tickets in advance is the avoidance of delays caused by purchasing tickets on the day. I'm sure we've all seen trains delayed by passengers turning up just a minute or two before departure time. Obviously a small discount to encourage online purchasing is therefore worth doing.
Certainly when I am on holiday, I want flexibility to change my plans (often weather dependent), so purchasing several days in advance is not something I like to do.
There is also the question of delivery. Having purchased online, how is my 'ticket' delivered? Being a dinosaur, I don't have a smart phone but might use a Laptop or iPad to make my purchase, but how do I then show my 'ticket' at the railway (without taking along said larger device).

 

I think what you need to do is use your trusty Leica to take a photo of the ticket on your computer, then rush the film round to the local Boots and get a print made of the ticket. Simples!

Beings serious, I suspect that these days a vanishingly small number of people - certainly those in the target family market - don't have a smart phone. I may be wrong.

As for advance sales, when we are visiting an area, there are normally a couple of things that are in the "must do" category, and a handful more in the "will likely do", then we fill in the gaps. But even with the "must dos", which specific day (within, say, a week we might be on holiday) might not be chosen until quite close to the time - often weather dependent. And the weather-dependency might actually be on another attraction: "We must do X, but can do it any day. We might do Y, but if we do it at all, it needs to be Thursday because that is when the weather is best / worst etc".

So in practice, that means we might have a plan when going on holiday, but it flexes. I'd say we always know where we are going the following day, and have bought tickets accordingly, but would rarely buy more than a day or two in advance, unless we were seriously worried about availability. So I'd suggest our typical pattern is to buy 1 - 2 days in advance, but very rarely 3 or more.

Tom

 

Of course the big flaw to advance tickets on the NYMR is you still have to visit the ticket office to collect them. So unless you are after the discount there's little point as there isn't much of a time saving at all. What they should do is give you a QR code the ticket inspector can simply scan on board (either by scanning a phone screen or a printout), but they aren't there yet. Whether that's in the future for them I don't know but it certainly works well elsewhere.

 

This one has long seemed an oddity for me. I think you could get around the timetabling to stop it, by bringing the first round of internal paths forward to enable the Whitby's to pass at Goathland instead of Grosmont. But you'd have to bring it so far forward it would cause an incredibly early lunch when that path is used for the Pullman. But then I still think the Pullman should be in the evening, but thats another can of worms.

 

At the Bluebell (sorry, again) they are finding that evening dining trains are less popular these days compared to daytime services. It might be that people don't want to drive in the dark. Sadly the Golden Arrow Evening Dining is regularly cancelled due to lack of bookings. I haven't known a lunchtime or afternoon catering train be cancelled in recent times.

 

I'm not altogether surprised at the pattern - going out for a restaurant grade meal deep in the country is something I'd be reluctant to do if I weren't staying within walking distance after the meal. I've done it before, and the drive home destroys the evening, both by requiring a nominated driver and by adding to what can already be a late night.

 

One of the things that I class as a part of the heritage experience when visiting a heritage railway is the issue of an Edmondson card ticket stamped in a dating press. It’s such a simple thing to do and provides an experience of something once so common but now essentially gone. It is also a souvenir of the journey but how many railways still do this? Most have given up and go for computerised tickets for simplicity. As a young lad, I kept all my tickets from my train journeys and still have them I’m sure that I wasn’t alone in doing this.
Bring back the Edmondson ticket, I say.

 

You might have a point. As we’ve aged, we’ve pretty much stopped eating dinner much after 7.00pm, so we would favour lunch or afternoon tea over an evening diner.

 

Actually I was considering going over there tomorrow. Being in the category ageing steam buff, I can't handle the heat, so tomorrow looks good from a weather pov. But oh dear it looks like it is diesel dominated this week and £35 (actually £55 from Leeds) is too much to pay for steam one way. And in any case you can't be sure of the roster until the day itself. So I think tomorrow it will be the KWVR for £20 and hopefully a ride behind 52044 and a visit to the carriage museum instead. Hope the stars will align for the NYMR another week.

I think at those prices, the normal schedule heatwaves excluded does need to be mainly steam. And I think they should publish the roster with the usual caveats and updates on a weekly basis.

 

Lack of steam is the big flaw with the NYMR in recent times. I think weirdly its been even worse since the Gold timetable was binned.

I used to be willing to travel to the NYMR fairly frequently because they were almost guaranteed to run multiple steam engines just due to the sheer amount of trains they were running. Even if some were diseasals (my girls words ) you still had three steam engines as a minimum. Today you've got one steam engine and four diesels. There's just no way I'm travelling past other railways for that. Last year I only visited twice, this year I've not been yet and haven't plans to outside of the two big steam events (Steam Gala and NELPG gala)

I totally respect that there are plenty of diesel enthusiasts out there but the numbers prove that the average customer has gone for steam, therefore that should be the dominant motive power. There is space for others but they shouldn't be the majority in anything other than high fire risk or diesel gala. The more they don't cater to that then the more they will lose repeat customers. I've had plenty of family stay in the area in recent years who either haven't travelled at all because of lack of steam, or went once only to moan about only having a small amount of steam or none at all on their journeys, so won't go again. The NYMR isn't the only railway out there, indeed there are plenty just in Yorkshire. If only the powers that be could see that.

 

I can think of at least one fairly successful larger heritage line that has pretty much only Mk I coaching stock (although since most of them date from the 1950's, with a share from the early 1960's, they would, I think, legitimately count as 'heritage' by now).

My larger point is that there seem to be almost as many different models for a successful heritage line as there are lines - at least, in the 'business' part of the line, as almost all the successful ones seem to be more than just a business. (That last point is what they all do have in common.)

One other thing they all have in common is keeping an eagle eye on what they are spending money on.

Noel

 

For me, no steam, no go. (Maybe for a 50% discount, but only if I’m in the area and I need to make the trip for other reasons).